The F-14

During my time here from time to time I have run into a large number of comments on the greatness of F-14, mostly in their radar ability vs. current day fighters own radar abilities. I would like to clear this up, it is my belief that most if not all of the stats quoted for the F-14 are for their ability vs. fighters of their era meaning having a much larger RCS then modern ones. While many modern fighters haven't gone to the extremes that the American "stealth planes" have all have been working to make small comprimises to improve RCS. Those who still believe that the F-14 is capable of detecting modern fighters at the same range and in the same numbers as before may prove so if they can.

Well what exact proof are you offering about your thoery on the F-14?

At anyrate the F-14D which is slated for retirement soon has the AN/APG-71 radar. Digital signal processing and the like which was a nice improvement over the AWG-9

AN/APG-71 Radar (F-14D). The AN/APG-71 Radar replaces the AN/AWG-9 Radar used in the F-14A/B and has fewer Weapon Replaceable Assemblies (WRAs), thereby reducing both weight and space requirements. The functional expansion is achieved by replacement of AN/AWG-9 analog processing hardware with more flexible digital processing. Major changes were made in the following areas: Signal Processor, Data Processor, Digital Display, Central Processor, Receivers, and Antenna configuration.
globalsecurity.org...

Now that being said, will it detect a Raptor? No, but an F-18E? Typhoon? Rafale? yes yes yes, these planes have some measures that reduce thier RCS but not to the magnitude of a true stealth aircraft. Might detect at a lesser range than say a bomber but detect they will. Also, these planes were intended for fleet defence. So you have to factor in E-3C coverage as well as Aegis SPY radar coverage as well cueing in the Tomcats

Well what exact proof are you offering about your thoery on the F-14?

I have no proof, it is as you said a theory, but if you think about it it makes sense. Why would the air forces of the world be equipping themselves with worse technology then something decades old? Now if someone could show me a good link that says that F-14 radar detected an Su-30(or equivilant) at x range I would be content whether it proved or disproved my theory. For the main time I would like to see an end to people parading how great the stats of the F-14 are, sure it's a great plane but it shouldn't compare to modern fighters, different requirements for each.
[quote
Now that being said, will it detect a Raptor? No, but an F-18E? Typhoon? Rafale? yes yes yes, these planes have some measures that reduce thier RCS but not to the magnitude of a true stealth aircraft. Might detect at a lesser range than say a bomber but detect they will. Also, these planes were intended for fleet defence. So you have to factor in E-3C coverage as well as Aegis SPY radar coverage as well cueing in the Tomcats
Will it detect the F-18, Typhoon..... ? At what range is is detected, because if they're only detecting the enemy at 50 km then you've got a problem. Finnally I don't have to factor in E-3c or Aegis because I'm not looking at a wartime situation but a flat comparison of the planes without any support.

You have first think of the following things. What are the capabillities of the radar? I havent looked about this in while but iirc the radar range is about 350 km's. That is a rather long distance. Say if the Typhoon is double as stealthy as a standard fighter back then then it would still be dectected at 175 km range.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
You have first think of the following things. What are the capabillities of the radar? I havent looked about this in while but iirc the radar range is about 350 km's. That is a rather long distance. Say if the Typhoon is double as stealthy as a standard fighter back then then it would still be dectected at 175 km range.

The stealth doesn't work that way. Just because F-22 has 0.01 RCS doesn't mean it can be detected at 100 times less range that 1m2 RCS plane. What does it mean? (please not that I don't remeber accurate numbers, these are inacurate, just for example).

Lets say you can detect plane with 3m2 RCS at 300km. THe 2m2 plane will be detected at 150km2, 1m2 100km, 0.5 m2 70km, 0.1 30km etc.. As you see the detection range of 0.5 is not 5 times more than of plane with 0.1 RCS. The closer you are the more difficult it is to achieve stealth.
Now Typhoon VS Tomcat. The EF has worse radar (although very capable for it's size)., but is RCS is also much lower, that's the reason why I think the BVR fight they will have roughly equal oportunities. The Phoenix would be advantage if the detection range is over 100km.
Tomcat VS Su-30 is a different story. Su-30 RCS is quite high, and I think that Tomcat would win in this case.
Many people ask why US is not developing replacement for the Phoenix. I think it is not necessary, simply because even nonstealth future planes will have much smaller RCS, so the BVR engagements will take place within 100km range - which future advanced Amraams can achieve. The only way how to use Phoenix alike misilles would be close cooperation with Awacs/Hawkeye.

Edit some exact numbers regarding RCS vs det. range -
F-14A/B radar is able to detect B-52(100sqm) at 200nm, a MiG-21(5sqm) at 115nm, and cruise missiles(0.1) at 65nm. It looks like F-14 will be in fact able to win the fight VS Typhoon, when estimated Typhoon RCS is 0.5 sqm (clean). That means it will be able to detect it at 80-90 miles still enough to use it's Phoenix misilles with 100nm range, while Typhoon can carry only Meteors (at best).
I was looking for Su-30 RCS and found sources where it is stated to be 10sqm (but russians were trying to reduce it with low cost stealth) so I think even if Su has more capable radar then Typhoon, Tomcat still wins...

[edit on 1-4-2005 by longbow]