It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

NEWS: Rice Asks Europe Not To Arm China

page: 2
0
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 04:58 PM
link   
Is that post intended to flame me? It might work if I felt proud of my British government or the European Union but I dont. Why would I feel wounded or angered at your flame aimed at European governments?

Maybe you should do us all a favour and try and tackle the issues rather than mouthing off and attacking the poster.

I freely admit that my government has commited hypocrasy and done wrong. Why its so hard for you to do the same is bewildering. Do you have some undisclosed interest in this administration which makes you post firey venom filled posts in threads of this nature?


Got hypocrasy?


[edit on 20/3/05 by subz]




posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 05:15 PM
link   
The Americans have been providers of weaponry for many countries, for including Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, South Korea, Taiwan, Libya and many others. Perhaps they are afraid that a power such as China will grow too difficult to handle, they aren't prepared to go into a second cold war with an organized power like China who has ulimited cheap labour , a huge and booming economy and now a growing arsenal of mosern weaponry.

Europe has every right to sell arms as they see fit. I think that America's resons that it will destabilize the region are fairly pathetic seeing as they have been selling huge amounts to Taiwan and South Korea, nad soon Japan, in an effort to create a buffer against China and North KOrea, doesn't that constitute the same destabilizing? What makes America so "pure" of intent in their own eyes. So sanctimonious it makes me sick.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 05:41 PM
link   

Is that post intended to flame me? It might work if I felt proud of my British government or the European Union but I dont. Why would I feel wounded or angered at your flame aimed at European governments?


The European governments are Republics last time I checked. The government is a repsentation of the people. You are responsible for what your government does.


The Americans have been providers of weaponry for many countries, for including Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, South Korea, Taiwan, Libya and many others. Perhaps they are afraid that a power such as China will grow too difficult to handle, they aren't prepared to go into a second cold war with an organized power like China who has ulimited cheap labour , a huge and booming economy and now a growing arsenal of mosern weaponry.


And you think this Cold War would just affect America? Did that happen the last time around? I believe it was Europe who would have suffered most from war with Russia, not America. America would have been fine sitting back and watching as Russia stormed across Western Europe.

Why should Europe listen to us? Because we are allies, and in the longrun, what hurts us, hurts them.


Europe has every right to sell arms as they see fit. I think that America's resons that it will destabilize the region are fairly pathetic seeing as they have been selling huge amounts to Taiwan and South Korea, nad soon Japan, in an effort to create a buffer against China and North KOrea, doesn't that constitute the same destabilizing? What makes America so "pure" of intent in their own eyes. So sanctimonious it makes me sick.


South Korea and Japan are not aggressive nations. They both lack offensive capability, and are taking no action to obtain it. Both nations are interested only in their own safety. On the other hand, China is a nation that has shown it will attack its own citizens. It has had open conflict with Russia, India, and Vietnam in the past half century. Their intentions with Taiwan are clear.

And quite frankly, you Europeans should feel happy that are even being given an option in the matter. In the end, Europe is weaker than America. If this were anytime in history, if this were when the Europeans were in charge, then you'd have seen threats of violence in this situation.

America could bomb the hell out of your major cities anytime it wished. On the other hand, Europe lacks the ability to harm America militarily. Economically, America is far more important to the world then Europe. We could easily dispose of any single European nation, or even a multiple European nations while doing no harm to ourselves. At the same time, no European nation could handle being cut off from America economically or militarily.

Europe should listen to America's REQUEST (this has never been a demand), before we stop asking, and start getting serious.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 07:17 PM
link   

as posted by subz
Is that post intended to flame me? It might work if I felt proud of my British government or the European Union but I dont. Why would I feel wounded or angered at your flame aimed at European governments?

Isn't the UK apart of Europe, subz? Last time I checked it was.




Maybe you should do us all a favour and try and tackle the issues rather than mouthing off and attacking the poster.

The same advice you gave, you should heed as well, maybe?
Your assertions, as pertaining to the issues you speak of, were countered. As such, how 'bout you deal with them...or....simply do what you do best: avoid them.






seekerof



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 07:27 PM
link   
Subz you are right European nations are going to "capitalized" just like US has been very sucessul at.

If the money is good and China can afford it, then they will sell, and make the profit.


Perhaps US should hurry up and give China a better "deal" like that it can still make a buck and still keep the supremacy.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 07:45 PM
link   
I think the only ones laughing in the end will be America anyway, when Europe is left trying to fill the gap left by the absense of American technology.

[edit on 20-3-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 09:03 PM
link   

from disturbed delieverer
Japan are not aggressive nations.




Ok....

Yep, your absolutely right, WW2 was about the rest of Asia invading Japan.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 09:16 PM
link   
Ok, I guess that means we can't trust Germany, or Italy now, either. Those damn fascists have to be plotting something...



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 09:23 PM
link   
Give me a break! So Japan and Korea have not seen major wars in the last half century??? If they are so peaceful, why did you have to bomb them with nuclear weapons and disallow them of a military for fifty years??

I understand you mean that these nations have not RECENTLY engaged in aggressive military motions, except that South Korea is still technically at war with the North and they have a forced military draft. You mean they don't have the military might to take on the Americans I assume, whereas the Chinese do, or will be able to match the US in about 10-20 years.

Again it is not for the Americans to decide who will sell weapons or not, nor would America be able to attack the European Union successfully. Way to go, you could bomb European cities, cities where THOUSANDS of americans work and visit everyday. Europe could and would be able to strike back, and America is in no position to stretch their military even farther than it is already. Especially against a modern military that many European nations have.

You are right it was a request not to, but it certainly wasn't a threat, nor will America be able to do much about it other than moan a little, should European nations go ahead and do the same thing that America does every year.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 10:09 PM
link   

Give me a break! So Japan and Korea have not seen major wars in the last half century??? If they are so peaceful, why did you have to bomb them with nuclear weapons and disallow them of a military for fifty years??


Do you know anything of Japanese culture right now? It doesn't seem like it. They have not taken place in any war besides the few troops they've sent to Iraq recently (which has been extremely controversial over there). America hardly would have given a damn if Japan would have built up its military in the past few decades. We would have welcomed it. It would have given us a stronger ally.

South Korea hasn't started a war for a very long time. The last major fighting they did was when communist North Korea attacked them. They've sent small numbers of troops to aid America in its wars. No aggressive policy there.


I understand you mean that these nations have not RECENTLY engaged in aggressive military motions, except that South Korea is still technically at war with the North and they have a forced military draft. You mean they don't have the military might to take on the Americans I assume, whereas the Chinese do, or will be able to match the US in about 10-20 years.


South Korea has conscription, as do most European nations, or most in the world for that matter. They are not at war with North Korea. They have only responded to action taken by North Korea. They are no threat to anyone unless they are attacked.

And the Chinese won't be any threat to America for a good 30 years. I am not concerned about China's military strength hurting America for some time.


Again it is not for the Americans to decide who will sell weapons or not, nor would America be able to attack the European Union successfully. Way to go, you could bomb European cities, cities where THOUSANDS of americans work and visit everyday. Europe could and would be able to strike back, and America is in no position to stretch their military even farther than it is already. Especially against a modern military that many European nations have.


Europe does not have global reach. They have few carriers, and it would be impossible to get near America. One only has to look at how the UK struggled with Argentina to see Europe's capability.

Loosing American citizens overseas would be insignicant.

Our military has just 150,000 in Iraq. That's out of a good 500,000 man army. Our military was multiple times the size it is now during the Cold War. Manpower is not America's weakness. We wouldn't need any ground war with Europe, anyway.

You don't even have to bomb a European city. You could bomb near a city to get the message across.

Europe would be completely powerless militarily.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 11:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by subz
Well Ive been experimenting with posting news stories and Ive found that my stories that dont relate to the US administration are voted for upgrade within a couple of hours. Those pertaining to the US administration get about a half dozen negative votes in the first 10 minutes and generally get burried.
[edit on 20/3/05 by subz]


Not really, i have had these problem with some of my own posts, mostly because of the format and also because the staff did not read the link to see why my introduction line seemed to have some sort of bias. I realize it is nothing personal, the staff don't have the time to read all the links provided would be my guess, although at the time it happened i had my second thoughts about it.

Most of the time the problem can be because the introduction line could be seen as having some sort of bias, or maybe the format itself is the problem.

BTW, i did not vote for or against this story, first time i see it, but it is news. Anyways, I think condolezza Rice did good on speaking against the sell of weapons to China.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 11:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Is this rant (from Rice) because the Chinese aren't buying enough U.S. arms? I'm a little surprised the Chinese are buying arms anyway.


The Chinese are not buying arms from us, except under the Clinton administration, along with several secrets that were sold and even allowed to be stolen from our country. One of the major exporters of illegal weapons around the world, including the selling of those weapons in the US, is China.

[edit on 20-3-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 03:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Ok, I guess that means we can't trust Germany, or Italy now, either. Those damn fascists have to be plotting something...




Your such a hypocrite.

In one instance you say that History is not important when it comes to Japan starting WW2.


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
China has had open conflict with Russia, India, and Vietnam in the past half century.


In another instance you say that China has in the past had border conflicts, therefore China is an aggressive nation. This is putting aside that stupid notion of China being a offensive nation. China is not occupying any territory that it has not controlled in it's imperial dynasty. All the border conflicts involved China retreating back unilaterally back inside it's own border.

Map of Qing Dynasty 1644-1911 AD



Source: CNN

And no, Germany is nothing like Japan. Read up on your history, especially the bit about "War Reparations" and "Admitting guilt for the war". Japan still believes that it committed no atrocities in WW2.


Originally from Mauddib
The Chinese are not buying arms from us, except under the Clinton administration, along with several secrets that were sold and even allowed to be stolen from our country. One of the major exporters of illegal weapons around the world, including the selling of those weapons in the US, is China.


Arr... Got to love your assertions without evidence Mauddib. I have never, ever seen you post any evidence to back up anything.


[edit on 21-3-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 03:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Do you know anything of Japanese culture right now? It doesn't seem like it.


I'll let someone else debunk the rest of your diatribe since it's so full of errors it's too much for one man. You're wrong though, on this issue, like usual.
Japan is changing the entire makeup of their armed forces to be better equipped to fight an offensive war. Or do you only comprehend news that agrees with your position? READ these, don't just tell me my links are irrelevant, like usual.

202.221.217.59...

www.mercurynews.com...



The terrorist hijackers who flew three passenger planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Sept. 11 brought 50 years of Japanese pacifism to an end.


www.cato.org...

www.progressivetrail.org...



Japan most certainly does maintain land, sea and air forces. It spends only one percent of its GDP on military expenses, but that GDP is huge, and according to the CIA Tokyo's military budget at over $42 billion per year exceeds those of Italy ($28 billion) and Germany ($35 billion), and approaches those of the U.K. ($43 billion) and France ($45 billion). Some consider Japan the fourth largest military spender in the world, after the U.S., Russia and China. Its "Self-Defense Forces" (Jieitai) number over 246,000, and are equipped with medium tanks, reconnaissance vehicles, armored personnel carriers, towed and self-propelled howitzers, mortars, single rocket and multiple rocket launchers, air defense guns, surface-to-surface missiles, antitank missiles, fixed-wing aircraft, attack helicopters, transport helicopters, diesel submarines, guided missile destroyers, frigates with helicopters, frigates, patrol and coastal combatants, mine warfare ships, amphibious ships, fighters, reconnaissance aircraft, airborne early warning aircraft, transport aircraft, surface-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, air-to-air missiles, and air-defense control and warning units.


news.bbc.co.uk...



The National Defence Programme Outline calls, among other things, for a relaxation to Japan's arms ban, and for more flexible military capabilities and an active engagement in peace-keeping, suggesting that in future Japanese forces will be deployed overseas more frequently.

While changes to the military are technically in contravention of Article 9 - which forbids Japan from maintaining any armed forces at all - a Japanese government official said this would not mean that the article needed to be rewritten. It is all a question of interpretation.


STOP. THINK. READ. THINK. Then type. Your strategy of TYPE, TYPE, TYPE, is self defeating and drags down the quality of this board.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 03:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by Seekerof
Isn't the UK apart of Europe, subz? Last time I checked it was.


So? Your point being? Did I say contrary to the fact?


Originally posted by Seekerof
Your assertions, as pertaining to the issues you speak of, were countered


Originally posted by Seekerof
Morals?
Don't even go there, subz, k?

Well consider me countered.


Originally posted by Seekerof
Give me a break. Your point is irrelevant.

Facts. Some facts would be nice here Seekerof



Originally posted by Seekerof
Apparently, you missed this, eh?
Saddam Nerve Gas Case Opens in the Netherlands

No in fact I remember seeing the US government scape-goating a Dutch businessman for selling chemical weapons to the Iraqis. Around the same time their government was doing the exact same thing. Maybe they were annoyed that they were being undercut. Whats your point here? A Dutch man is being brought to justice by a Dutch court? How does that prove that Americans didnt sell weapons to Saddam Hussein after Halabja?


Originally posted by Seekerof
Keep talking. Your overflated European values [as with your overflated Euro] and morals are likewise in the "toilet"

Now if thats not a personal attack, MY "overinflated European values" I dont know what is. Your a moderator and I find that offsensive and I just might have to forward some of your posts from now on.


Originally posted by Seekerof
The same advice you gave, you should heed as well, maybe?

When I start attacking you or your values instead of the issue then yeah I just might.

So to conclude, I was thoroughly rebuked by your posting of a link about a Dutch man being stomped on by the Dutch courts and some firey adjectives.


BACK ON TOPIC
If the US is worried about the effects of selling China weapons and the ensuing death toll that would arise from it, why dont they try and stop the selling of weapons to any country by any country, period (Including themselves)? Come on, do the World a favour and stop the arming of ANY COUNTRY in an effort to reduce the death toll World wide.

Why focus on the arming of China when you're simulataneously cramming Taiwan and South Korea full of sophisticated radar and weapons? Why complain about selling weapons to a future enemy when America has directly funded Iraq, the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the past? Is this a change of heart on the Americans side? Or is it merely because China is a vast market and the Americans are put out by the fact that China wants those filthy French weapons and not good ol' American ones?

Guys, if America was sincere in wanting to avoid conflict with China and to stop the death caused by high tech weapons then I would be stood shoulder to shoulder with Ms Rice on this issue. But they are not, they just want to protect THEMSELVES and maintain THEIR CAPABILITIES to wage wholesale slaughter of Chinese civilians/soldiers.

Other examples of the United States disregard for reducing death tolls in favour of the bottom line and maintaining their OWN CAPABILITES

Ban landmines? World says yes, Cuba and the USA say no!
Non-signatories to the UN Landmine Ban

Russia offers complete nuclear dissarmament in 1986 at Reykjavik summit thus ending the Cold War. Regan says no!
Russian Chronicle of Events 1986

Cry me a river now that Americans are in the firing line due to other countries self interests and profit taking! In fact the US should be proud, afterall imitation is the highest form of flattery.


[edit on 21/3/05 by subz]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 05:47 AM
link   
Thank you rapier28 you gave a concise report on the true circumstances of Japan and South Korean army power, the South Korean army is poised to attack the north at any time, I live here, currently am in Seoul and let me tell you it wouldn't take much to ignite something here.
It is quite obvious to me that deluded is living up to his name. He must realize he is SERIOUSLY reaching when he says losing American citizens overseas, thousands of them, would be insignifigant. You are truly searching for an argument here man, really we should be discussing the question at hand, China and Taiwan, because it is fairly stupid to even entertain a war between a coalition of European powers and the United States. There wolud obviously be no winners in such a scenario.

You can rant and rave all you like however, I am not trying to stop you prove yourself to be a little off.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 05:55 AM
link   
Just a correction,

I think you were crediting WyrdeOne.

Nonetheless, the thank you was nice.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:14 AM
link   
I don't know why we are fighting about this all anyway.... America is just as bad as Europe, in the end there not really that different from eachother.

haha, i love how the american right loves to think that somehow the UK is a seperate entity of Europe, sure its not on the European mainland but the history and the culture is intwined with eachother, the UK is certainly a European nation, if you need any evidence of it is that they are part of the EU for starters. The UK also shares many of the same characteristics of other European nations.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:35 AM
link   
Why do I bother arguing about this? My aim is to correct American ignorance and unjust pride in their country. I freely admit that the UK government has commited, and continues to commit, wrong acts and im not proud of them.

When you start to get Americans questioning their government more and more instead of showing blind aliegance, you stand a greater chance that they will do something about it.

I admit that I consider the United States the greatest unused power for good in this World. Its being wasted and hijacked by a group of elites who are making out like bandits while their public are asleep.

I might come across as anti-American but I actually am not. Im actually anti-bad government, and seeing as though America currently has the worlds most powerful and greedy bad government they attract the majority of my attention. You wont see me being patriotic about the British or Europe, any one in good conscience that knows what Britain did in the 19th/20th centuries could not be.

However the British government of the 21st century is no longer on an Imperial bender and no longer slaughters savages as a matter of course. This was brought about by civil disobedience and increased awareness of what was being carried out in our name. It wasnt brought about by repeating ad nauseum that Britain is #1, does no wrong and is the epitome of perfection. I want to help kick start true patriotism in American minds and get them to drop their "America A OK!" attitudes and really scrutinise their government. Hold them accountable when they go astray and be ever vigilant.

[edit on 21/3/05 by subz]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 12:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28

Arr... Got to love your assertions without evidence Mauddib. I have never, ever seen you post any evidence to back up anything.


I always have backed up my info... i have been posting in these forums for a bit over a year now, and i am pretty sure that one of the things that most old members in here can tell you about me, appart from me giving sarcastic remarks to members like you for trying to discredit me or demean me, is that I am always able to back up what i say..... always...

Whenever i am giving my opinion, i say it is my opinion, otherwise you can be sure there are links backing what i said. I don't base the facts i give on hoaxes, and i don't base them on rumors either.

Everything that I said in this thread I have given links and evidence for in the not so distant past... i thought this was already known by people...but i guess i was wrong...

If you wanted links, you could have asked me, and I would have been more than willing to provide you with the links without my sarcastic and demeaning response, but you had to run your mouth and try to discredit me. I am going to provide links for everything i said in this thread, but i also want you to provide us in here with a link on anything i have said in ATSNN where i have never given evidence and links, or that i can't back up....

If what you are looking for is evidence of what i said about China being one of the major exporters of illegal weapons, here are a couple links.

www.findarticles.com...

Here is a link to the Cox Report about China's espionage on the US.
www.gpo.gov...


If you are looking for evidence that while Clinton was in office China was able to steal military secrets, by buying Clinton and Gore with campaing funds, here are some links about the Chinagate scandal.


The 1998 book The Year of the Rat (published by Regnery, a sister company of HUMAN EVENTS), written by two congressional security committee staffers, outlined how the Clinton Administration compromised the nation's security in exchange for donations from the PRC and equally large sums of cash donated from defense contractors.


Excerpted from.
www.findarticles.com...


A compilation of MRC analysis of Chinagate disclosures and what many media outlets have not covered about Chinese espionage and technology transfers.


Excerpted from.
www.mrc.org...


Next time, you should provide evidence of what you are claiming when trying to discredit anyone...

[edit on 21-3-2005 by Muaddib]



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join