Terri Schiavo - A Moral Crossroads

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Doesn't it bother anyone that the federal government is interfering with the sanctity of marriage by going over her wishes as relayed by her husband? You remember the religious thing about how a man and woman leave their families and cleave to each other? Last I heard, a married couple was considered a legal unit but eh US government and religious groups seem to have turned a blind eye to that. With this as legal precedent, can the federal government further erode the bond of marriage?

I had to laugh at the part about the sanctity of marriage, he was dating the new girlfriend a year after she was first admitted to hospital. He has been living with the new woman for 10 years and has children with her.... sanctity of marriage? Oh and ofcourse parents have no rights either. Which part of starving her to death are you struggling with? You think she said" if I have diminished capacity don't use euthanasia just starve me to death."

Just a question is there a way below top secret award?.





[edit on 20-3-2005 by Mynaeris]

A good example is testifying against a spouse. Could that go away?

Someone's been watching too much of the Soprano's.

Let the poor woman out of her misery. What if that were YOU. All of you answer that honestly.

Personally I have a living will with a "do not resusitate" provision. I don't want to be a veg.

Originally posted by MauiStacey
A good example is testifying against a spouse. Could that go away?

Someone's been watching too much of the Soprano's.

Let the poor woman out of her misery. What if that were YOU. All of you answer that honestly.

Personally I have a living will with a "do not resusitate" provision. I don't want to be a veg.

Let her out of her misery? We are not speaking about a lethal injection here, we are speaking about starvation. Honestly this "quality of life" claptrap gets me. Maybe all those terminally ill people should be starved to death (sarcasm).

OK Mynah, what's your solution?

Sorry to interrupt your conversation with Mynah intrep, but I have a question...anyone know if they are still on for the 12:01 vote which is only 8 minutes away now...

as horrific as it sounds, she will be dead in 5 days. Suffer for 5 more days with stomach cramps and be in pain......or suffer for 20 more years being trapped in a vegetative body developing bed sores and her teeht rotting out and falling down her throat some more. It's more inhumane to keep the poor lady alive. She has no control over anything. For god's sake let her go! it's more humane. She left 15 years ago, only her shell is alive because of a damned machine.

[edit on 20-3-2005 by MauiStacey]

I have some experience here. I lost my Grandfather 3 years ago. The Cancer was eating him up. 2 choices, let him suffer for months with assistance or up the meds and let him die quickly and with dignity. Fortunatly the second prevailed. I praise the staff for the right choice.

Originally posted by intrepid
OK Mynah, what's your solution?

My solution is :

1)Reconnect the food supply;
2) Do a brain scan with or without Mr Schiavo's permission
3) Assist Mr Schiavo with his divorce as he has a new "wife" and kids;
4) With scientific fact conclude what the best way forward is for her if she is indeed braindead;
5)If she is braindead what suffering is she really going through being fed artificially? Her family aren't inconvenienced? Her husband doesn't visit and has a new life anyway?
6) Should they decide that she were braindead and should be assisted in dying , make it a lethal injection not total starvation.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
6) Should they decide that she were braindead and should be assisted in dying , make it a lethal injection not total starvation.

It's not a lethal injection, that sounds so like a sentance, it's upping the med's, letting a person go.

Yes, I'm all for euthenasia. If you can do it for your cat, what makes it wrong for someone you love.

The sad fact is that the facts regarding this case have been obscured with emotional rhetoric. The web has literally been flooded with prolife garbage that doesent even begin to touch upon the actual legal issues.

The main crux of the arguments supporting Mrs. Schiavo's sentience are the infamous video clips where Mrs. schiavo appears to react to her surroundings. What no one ever mentions is that fact that those clips are highly edited takes from a four hour video. The videos were presented as evidence in the court case and were ruled as being nondemonstrative of human conciousness.

quoted from court transcript
At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schlinder tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.

court transcript

So in other word if you repeat the same thing over and over again your eventually going to get a response you want. If you flip a coin enough times eventually its going to come up heads when you call heads.

Another thing you never hear about is how most of Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex has atrophied to nothing and been replaced by spinal fluid.

quoted from court transcript
However, at this time, the Schindlers have not seriously contested the fact
that Mrs. Schiavo's brain has suffered major, permanent damage. In the initial
adversary proceeding, a board-certified neurologist who had reviewed a CAT scan of Mrs. Schiavo's brain and an EEG testified that most, if not all, of Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex--the portion of her brain that allows for human cognition and memory--is either totally destroyed or damaged beyond repair. Her condition is legally a "terminal condition."

Court transcript

For those unaware the cerebral cortex is the part of the brain where actual human thought occurs. You as a person could no more exist without your cerebral cortex then you could without your head.

I dont know what therapies the prolifers are talking about when they say that Mrs. Schiavo can be cured. Unless medical science invented a method to regrow the human brain from next to nothing and never told anyone the most anyone can hope for is restoration of basic motor skills. Not actual thought and conciousness in other words.

Heres a picture of Mrs. Schiavos CT scan.
Schiavo CT scan
The large black region is spinal fluid.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by boogyman]

I guess it's just down to waiting now. I'd rather see them pick a decision before the food tube is removed so they don't traumatise her again and again. But I guess thats not an option now.

The two sides are playing tug of war with a delicate life, if one side doesn't get its way then the process will kill her soon enough.

Originally posted by Mynaeris

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Doesn't it bother anyone that the federal government is interfering with the sanctity of marriage by going over her wishes as relayed by her husband? *SNIP*

I had to laugh at the part about the sanctity of marriage, he was dating the new girlfriend a year after she was first admitted to hospital.*SNIP*
just a question is there a way below top secret award?.

I really love it when people take part of your quote and turn it around to say something entirely different from the original. *shakes head*
Once again for the record, this is NOT about Terri, her husband, their marriage or her family

This is about the President and the US legislature overstepping their bounds and trampling on OUR constitution. This is about the institution of marriage. This is about the government not infering in our private lives and bedrooms.

I could care LESS about her husband and his girlfriend and what they may or may NOT be doing.
This is about the bigger picture. The fallout from this rush to enact law. This is but a distraction. Deny ignorance here.

The government is so busy "investigating" steroids in baseball and being "concerned" about this poor ghost of a woman while people in this country have little food. Congress out to bow their heads in shame.

Originally posted by intrepid
I have some experience here. I lost my Grandfather 3 years ago. The Cancer was eating him up.

I had a similar experience with my dad. Fortunately, he was not hooked up to any machines at the end.
It was hard at the end to let him go, but it would have been wrong to be selfish and put him on machines.

Originally posted by boogyman


For those unaware the cerebral cortex is the part of the brain where actual human thought occurs. You as a person could no more exist without your cerebral cortex then you could without your head.

Not strictly true. Hydrocephalous patients often have undeveloped neocortical tissues, and yet infant patients who have had a shunt installed to control CSF pressures have continued to experience brain development. There was a British patient in the 80's who actually passed his "O levels" without much brain above his ears.

Further, there have been patients with lesions of the limbic system, especially the thalamus, who lost their "personality" without the neocortex being affected at all. There is growing evidence that the sense of self is centered in the thalamus, rather than in the neocortex. Patients with Broca's aphasia and Wernecke's aphasia often have limbic damage rather than neocortical lesions.

On a philosophical plane, are you equating neocortical activity with humanity?

If so, then you are getting on some pretty shaky ground. Since there is minimal neocortical electrical activity during deep non-REM sleep, then it wouldn't be a crime to kill you when you are in stage IV sleep, since you are "not really a human" at that time. Ditto with somone having a stroke or throwing a clot of any kind. By your definition, they wouldn't be fully human, either.

So your saying that if your cerebral cortex was removed you'd still be a fully functioning human? You'd still be conscious and aware?

Hydrocephalous patients do not "often" have undeveloped cerebral cortexes. An undeveloped neocortex is a side effect of lack of treatment not a symptom of the disease. With treatment as you noted the cerebral cortex will no longer be constrained by fluid and the brain will continue to grow normally.

Schiavo's state was not the result of fluid buildup and will not reverse itself if the fluid is drained from her skull. Her neocortex isn't undeveloped its atrophied through lack of use and bloodflow. That fluid in her skull isnt preventing her from being normal in fact its probably the only thing maintaining the stuctural integrity of her skull.

Lesions of the limbic system result in behavior change not the removal of the capacity for human thought. People with such lesions can still interact with world. They do not become vegetables incapable of interaction with the outside world like Schiavo has become.

You forget that someone in the stage four sleep cycle will regain full brain function. Sleep is a normal process for humans radical atrophy of the brain isnt. The argument isnt that she isnt human so she should die the argument is that she has a terminal condition were euthanasia can be apropriate. The person suffering from stroke you mention would also fall into the category of terminal disorder.

Also I'm not quite sure what an O level is though after some research I think your refering to a British secondary school test. Regarding your anecdote I wouldnt mind seeing some documentation supporting your statement that a patient passed the test without a cerebrum.

Also I might add that aphasia is the result of damage to the Cerebral cortex not the limbic system. Broca's aphasia is the result of damage to the frontal lobe Wernickes is the result of damage to the temporal lobe.

[font color=blueFont] I think many people have forgotten that while we are all having dinner or lunch with our families and loved ones, there is one woman STARVING to DEATH in a bed, Helpless and at the mercy of selfrighteous Judges and a evil husband, that only decided Terry wanted to die after getting his MILLION bucks... Not even criminals are starved to death by courts. If starving a helpless woman to death is humain, what moral do we have to condemen those who are Pro-Death Penalty or Pro-Abortion??? If staving a person to death is humain, how can we point the finger at Chinese orphanages where children are abandoned to die of starvation by their own parents choice?[/font]

Symptoms of both aphasias have been seen in patients without Neocortical damage, but rather problems in the thalamus. Ojemann and Sperry had both speculated that many aphasias are not primarily neocortical problems, or at least the symptoms can occur without neocortical damage.

I had thought that Ojemann mentioned it some of his work, but I can't find the resource I'm looking for online.

I guess I bristle at the idea that the full measure of a human being is tied up in their formal thought processes. Certainly, many of life most important events are experienced through the whole self, and not simple through the rational mind.

I believe that metally retarded people are fully human, despite the fact that they lack cognition that we view as typically human.

I believe that the self is more than simply the mind at work.


My objection to the way Terri is being treated is really not about withdrawing care. I completely agree that the time may have come for ending her life. My real reservation concerns her husband's motives for the choices he has made.

It's not that I question her right to die, or the right of a spouse to make the decision. My problem with the whole issue is that her husband has acted in an incredibly suspicioius and callous manner. I don't believe he has his wife's interests at heart.

If a doctor who was new to the case, and had never met with the husband, agreed that she ought to be terminated, I'd probably be fine with that. My limited reading in the story makes me think that this hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by Mynaeris

Originally posted by intrepid
OK Mynah, what's your solution?

My solution is :

1)Reconnect the food supply;
2) Do a brain scan with or without Mr Schiavo's permission
3) Assist Mr Schiavo with his divorce as he has a new "wife" and kids;
4) With scientific fact conclude what the best way forward is for her if she is indeed braindead;
5)If she is braindead what suffering is she really going through being fed artificially? Her family aren't inconvenienced? Her husband doesn't visit and has a new life anyway?
6) Should they decide that she were braindead and should be assisted in dying , make it a lethal injection not total starvation.

I do agree up to number 6... i dont think anyone should be put to death for beeing sick, unless they have living wills wich this is not the case... Also im sure everyone understands tha Terri is not on life support... if she was she would have been dead already...the poor woman just cant feed herself, due to her health... should we start killing everyone who cant feed themsleves... i think this all thing is riduculous, and to be honest i can go as far as as saying that her husband should be arrested for attempted murder. ... One of this days we will give husbands the roght to stone their wives to death, like some other "godly nations"...*cough...caugh*:shk:

Originally posted by MauiStacey
where in history before our time has one been kept alive through artificial means? It's called survival of the fittest, she would not survive.

Don't get me wrong, I feel for her, have said prayers and shed tears. But, she is on her way home to the Creator and what could be better than that.

We all need to say prayers that she mets a painless end.

You could say that Survivial through artificial means, started the first time
a human was rescued from the jaws of a predator, by another human.
Possibly even nursed back to health, maybe even using herbal remedies.
I truly think it goes back thousands upon thousands of years.

Fast forward to the present..
Technology, good or bad, has made it possible to nearly "resurrect" a person from the dead.. Sometimes a substantial recovery is made..
I don't see this happening to Terri. I've read, and watched so many news reports. I've gone through so many threads here, I'm convinced that, she is a mere shell of her former self.. The parts of the brain that made TERRI, are no longer functional. She reacts to light, or a voice, but does not know why.

Having said this, I still view her as a human being..because thats what I see, lying in that bed. From the outside, she is a human (even somewhat animated)..
From the inside, what is she? We will never know. We can't know, because she can't tell us.
She will never be able to tell us.

I would not want to persist in this hopeless condition. I would want to be left to a natural course. Let me slip away..Let Terri slip away..


Nerdling

This is the only TERRI related thread to which I've responded.
Because your opening post was thoughtful, and the responses were civil.
Way above for you!

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