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NEWS: Doctors Remove Terry Schiavo's Feeding Tube

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posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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The thing that really gets me about this is the fact that they are going to let her die by dehydration. She will die from lack of water before she dies from starvation. This appalls me. Convicted murderers have a more human death than what Terry experience.




posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Yes. She gets to be treated like an animal.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by dgtempe
Slayer- THATS WHAT THE HUSBAND CLAIMS. Nowhere did she express those feelings ever. Not to her parents, or any other living person.


And you know this how? Were you there? No of course not. The courts have ruled that the husband proved his case that is all the proof that is required.


Shots, the same answer you gave dgtempe applies to you. You weren't there either. Now to what the real problem concerning this matter is...

That so called Judge ignored a congressional subpoena. The judge is a liberal activist and even the communist infected ACLU is in on killing her. When judges start legislating from there bench, side stepping Congress, you better believe this country is in a hell of a shape.

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay pledged Friday to hold Florida state judge George Greer in contempt of Congress for ignoring a congressional subpoena for Terri Schiavo's testimony, saying, "No little judge sitting in a state district court in Florida is going to usurp the authority of Congress."

www.newsmax.com...

I hope Congress kicks this liberal a** judge off the bench.

Chief



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Shots,

I'm glad you're THERE and I'm HERE.

What can i say?


Interesting spin. I never said I was there. I simply stated the courts said he had proven his point. Trust me the courts know more then you or I will ever know. Are you saying to know more then the Judges?



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Yes. She gets to be treated like an animal.


Compasonniate care is never treating someone like an animal. Keeping her going against here wishes is treating her like an animal. Most people have no clue about the day to day lives of these people.

Everything that made Terri special died when whe went hypoxic and lost higher brain function. Period.

If he husband is lying what is his motivation?

He has moved on
Money is not a motive
How do you know she did not say this?
The husband has the right to decide for his wife if she in incapacitated.

etc etc etc etc



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Emotion ruins any chance of even having a debate on this one. That's by design. This is part of the divide strategy. No doubt about it.


Amazingly effective, when you look at 'money' in vs. 'money' out. I don't really mean money, I guess the better word would be efficacy, but you get the gist.


Originally posted by RANT
I've made all my logical points as to the rule of law dozens of times already in dozens of prior threads on this over dozens of weeks (if not months)...


You know as well as I that the rule of law means nothing in America, not anymore. Laws are enforced or ignored, depending on the agenda of the day. We are living in a lawless land, and the people have already resorted to banditry.

Normally I would predict open rebellion, war in the streets, but something different is occuring to me...

I was thinking of the earthquakes, and this issue, for some reason they merged into one thought, and it occured to me - the best way to maintain stasis in the face of environmental uncertainty is to regulate pressure on two sides of the fault. If the left is giving in, give them some juice and lay off the pedal of the right, and vice versa if the right is fading. Using this method, the continual tug-of-war is maintained, without any real chance for an end to the struggle because of unanticipated victory on the part of either side.

This is a rigged casion people. Take whatever money you have left and head for the exit.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by dgtempe
Yes. She gets to be treated like an animal.


Compasonniate care is never treating someone like an animal. Keeping her going against here wishes is treating her like an animal. Most people have no clue about the day to day lives of these people.

Everything that made Terri special died when whe went hypoxic and lost higher brain function. Period.

If he husband is lying what is his motivation?

He has moved on
Money is not a motive
How do you know she did not say this?
The husband has the right to decide for his wife if she in incapacitated.

etc etc etc etc


What is the husbands motivation?

What if it was him that caused her to be in this state?

Her miracuously coming to, and fingering him, would not be in his best interest.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
ANYBODY ASK HER?
Blink once for let me live, twice for end it? Of course not.


DGtempe, I admire you quite a bit but I disagree here. Don't you think if such a question had been asked, and answered with two blinks, that everyone would know such a fact? The media has been a very effective tool in this battle and you know this would have been used if it was the case.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by dgtempe
Slayer- THATS WHAT THE HUSBAND CLAIMS. Nowhere did she express those feelings ever. Not to her parents, or any other living person.


And you know this how? Were you there? No of course not. The courts have ruled that the husband proved his case that is all the proof that is required.


I'm not finished with this yet.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois and House majority leader Tom DeLay of Texas said in a statement, ''It's unconscionable that Senate Democrats . . . would not allow a vote to move forward on critical legislation the House passed last night to save and protect Terri Schiavo's life." By Charles Babington and Manuel Roig-Franzia, Washington Post, March 18, 2005

The above statement is just another reason democrats are a clear and present danger to the USA. Terri, you can thank the Democrats for killing you.

Chief



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by Carseller4
What is the husbands motivation?
What if it was him that caused her to be in this state?
Her miracuously coming to, and fingering him, would not be in his best interest.


She was a bulemic, and an electrolyte imbalance caused her to have a cardia arrest.

The Husband? I love how everbody assumes he is motivated by money or in your case worry that she will implicate him in some sort of crime :shk:

Also I took note how quickly the money angle wasa dropped when it cam to light that he turned down even $10 million to give up his rights in the case.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Carseller4
What is the husbands motivation?
What if it was him that caused her to be in this state?
Her miracuously coming to, and fingering him, would not be in his best interest.


She was a bulemic, and an electrolyte imbalance caused her to have a cardia arrest.

The Husband? I love how everbody assumes he is motivated by money or in your case worry that she will implicate him in some sort of crime :shk:

Also I took note how quickly the money angle wasa dropped when it cam to light that he turned down even $10 million to give up his rights in the case.


FredT, would you condone starving a death-row inmate to death? Wouldn't this be cruel and unusual punishment.

The issue here is not a "he said, she said". There is no proof that Terri wouldn't want to live this way. There is no "Living Will".

The issue is not pulling the plug on a breathing machine or a heart machine.

The issue is starvation.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by w555hc
House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois and House majority leader Tom DeLay of Texas said in a statement, ''It's unconscionable that Senate Democrats . . . would not allow a vote to move forward on critical legislation the House passed last night to save and protect Terri Schiavo's life." By Charles Babington and Manuel Roig-Franzia, Washington Post, March 18, 2005


This belongs as an example in the dark days thread. Seriously, this is it, right here, and look below, the best part is below.


Originally posted by w555hc
The above statement is just another reason democrats are a clear and present danger to the USA. Terri, you can thank the Democrats for killing you.

Chief


So that's what it's all about for you, and that's what it's going to be all about for America? So believable, so timely...

Skeptic Overlord is a time traveller from the future! He's John Titor in disguise! He predicted this in last night's thread!

Synchronicity...

I suppose the civil war will start any day now...

I better open my general store. Nothing but MREs, Silver Tip (ammo and bud
), and canned water. Bring it on baby, I'm ready to become a war profiteer. God knows I won't be fighting for anyone or anything but the survival of myself and my family.

Let's try and get the end of civilization over with quickly though, okay? I wanna have some time afterwards so I can enjoy the sound of crickets and frogs...before 2012.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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Ok lets break this down a little and look at some of the facts that are coming out now that until recently have been kept hidden:

1. Her husband claims that she dropped mysteriously due to a heart attack from a potassium imbalance. Michael Schiavo was present at the time, is trained in CPR, yet never administered it to his wife that had just dropped to the floor.

2. a bone scan that was performed on Terri on March 5, 1991 showed that there were several broken bones including her pelvis, back, ankle, bone bruises, and ossifications. She was examined by a board certified radiologist who gave a deposition in 1993. It was stated in this deposition that her injuries were not consistent with a fall due to a heart attack or being bed ridden for the 13 months before the scan. He said that they were more consistent with being thrown into sharp furniture or assaulted with a blunt object.

3. Dr. Michael Baden, a well known forensic pathologist, stated on October 23, 2003 that the enzyme imbalance that has supposedly caused her condition was extrodinarily unlikely to have caused a heart attack. He also stated that the bone injuries seemed to him to have been caused by a fall or a beating and should have been investigated in 1991.

4. Other medical experts have testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made in Terri's case and that her rigid neck injuries were consistent with being strangled.

5. Her husband has received a court order to have her cremated immediately following her death. This will prevent there from being any autopsy done on her that might bring out more of what caused her condition.

6. During a civil trial that led to a $2 million verdict for Terri from abuse that occured after her accident her husband stated that he would do everything in his power to rehabilitate her and would be with her forever. After the verdict he euthanized her cats, stopped all therapy, melted down her wedding and engagement rings, and is quoted by a nurse at the hospice as having asked if there was any way to accelerate her death. Much of that money has now been spent but about $500,000 remains.

6. According to Terri Schiavo's brother less then a year after the onset of her condition Michael Schiavo was talking about moving in with another woman. He has since moved in with a women, been in a relationship with her for 10 years, and has fathered 2 children.

7. Before her condition occured Michael Schiavo had been put on several drugs for anger management, had lost several jobs due to his temper, was living off of his wives income which he frequently overspent, and on the day of the supposed heart attack he had gotten into a fight with her about spending too much money at a hair dresser. In a previous altercation involving Mr. Schiavo his doctor had suggested that in future altercations the police should be called.

8. Michael Schiavo was offered $1 million to walk away and give up custody. He turned it down. This leaves one of two very different possibilites. Either Schiavo is very much trying to follow his wives wishes, or he knows if he accepts the money that he could be criminally implicated if Terri were rehabilitated.

9. Over 30 doctors have gone on the record stating that Terri Schiavo is not in a persistant vegitative state and has a good chance of being rehabilitated.

10. The judge in the case, which has consistently ruled in the husbands favor, has allowed several laws to be broken and is liable should any investigation occur. These liabilities involved neglect perpetrated on Terri by her husband in the last several years as her guardian. They are covered in this article.

www.theempirejournal.com...

11. The husband never stated that Terri Schiavo wanted to die until after the verdict rewarding her and her guardian money for her care. This was also around the time that he stopped rehabilitative care and other therapies and asked if anything could be done to hasten her death.

12. Terri Schiavo is not on life support. She breathes on her own. The only thing that she is receiving is food and water through a feeding tube. This is not life support such as a resperator. Food and water are provided to any patient, no matter what their condition. We even give those condemned to death a last meal.

To be honest, at first I thought that she should just be allowed to die. This was until I started researching what was actually going on and is receiving almost no media play. Here you have a husband with a history of violent tendencies including stalking (was not covered in this but seems to be the case) who even though he is trained in CPR does not try to restart her heart. He is her loving caring husband while a trial occurs that nets him a lot of money on her death, then immediately after kills her cats, melts her engagement and wedding rings into a ring for himself, cuts off all therapy and rehabilitation, and starts working to have her feeding tube removed so that she will die. He stands to gain half a million dollars on her death and even though he was offered 1 million he can't take it because it would lead to him probably being charged with causing the condition in the first place. Finally we have a judge that has allowed neglect to take place, has broken several Florida laws, and the only way he can get out of it is for Terri Schiavo to disappear, which will happen when she dies of starvation and is immediately cremated. This same judge is now in contempt of Congress as he is actively trying to bring death to a person that has been subpeanoed before congress. Take this information as you will.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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God bless her precious soul and I hope she has a painless journey home.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by jukyu
Ok lets break this down a little and look at some of the facts that are coming out now that until recently have been kept hidden:


Okay. This was the best post I've seen on the subject so far by the way. Congratulations are in order.



Originally posted by jukyu
1. Her husband claims that she dropped mysteriously due to a heart attack from a potassium imbalance. Michael Schiavo was present at the time, is trained in CPR, yet never administered it to his wife that had just dropped to the floor.


Potassium deficiency can lead to angina and severe hypertension, though the symptoms are usually evidenced over a long period of time rather than in a catastrophic heart failure. Is there any evidence from before her accident to corroborate this possibility? How do we know he didn't administer CPR? Did they just check for chest bruises or base that assumption off her vital signs, or was someone there with him? Is there any way to know if a person has recently received CPR?


Originally posted by jukyu
2. a bone scan that was performed on Terri on March 5, 1991 showed that there were several broken bones including her pelvis, back, ankle, bone bruises, and ossifications. She was examined by a board certified radiologist who gave a deposition in 1993. It was stated in this deposition that her injuries were not consistent with a fall due to a heart attack or being bed ridden for the 13 months before the scan. He said that they were more consistent with being thrown into sharp furniture or assaulted with a blunt object.


That would appear to be pretty damning evidence... It is possible however, for people whose bodies don't properly assimilate minerals such as calcium and potassium to have brittle bone disorders. This possibility can't be completely discounted.


Originally posted by jukyu
3. Dr. Michael Baden, a well known forensic pathologist, stated on October 23, 2003 that the enzyme imbalance that has supposedly caused her condition was extrodinarily unlikely to have caused a heart attack. He also stated that the bone injuries seemed to him to have been caused by a fall or a beating and should have been investigated in 1991.


Well I don't know the particulars of this imbalance, but I would tend to agree based on my research on Potassium deficiencies and the fact, as I've said, that it tends to be a crippling rather than catastrophic onset. Did he examine her, or did he base his findings off the consultation of another doctor? The latter is quite common, and in my opinion, tantamount to malpractice.


Originally posted by jukyu
4. Other medical experts have testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made in Terri's case and that her rigid neck injuries were consistent with being strangled.


Hypertension can cause severe, crippling muscle contractions, extreme pain, and in some cases death. It is a possibilty. These experts testified in court at the settlement hearing I assume? If not, then where did they testify, and under what circumstances?


Originally posted by jukyu
5. Her husband has received a court order to have her cremated immediately following her death. This will prevent there from being any autopsy done on her that might bring out more of what caused her condition.


As I understand it, no cremation would be necessary to prevent autopsy. The law may vary in Florida, but I think the legal guardian can refuse autopsy on several grounds. So, unless Florida has mandatory autopsies excepting those people covered by a court order, this isn't really an indication of his guilt. But it certainly does SOUND suspicious enough to get people riled up...


Originally posted by jukyu
6. During a civil trial that led to a $2 million verdict for Terri from abuse that occured after her accident her husband stated that he would do everything in his power to rehabilitate her and would be with her forever. After the verdict he euthanized her cats, stopped all therapy, melted down her wedding and engagement rings, and is quoted by a nurse at the hospice as having asked if there was any way to accelerate her death. Much of that money has now been spent but about $500,000 remains.


Okay, the lawsuit didn't target him, so why is it an issue? He claimed the doctors caused her injuries? Him getting rid of her cats and melting down their wedding band seems more like signs of him trying to get on with his life after a tragic loss, rather than some concerted effort to harm her. He claims her wish was to die, so it would make sense he would ask the nurse a question like that. What relevance does the remaining sum have? Is it because people think he wants to keep the rest if he can dispatch her in a timely fashion?


Originally posted by jukyu
6. According to Terri Schiavo's brother less then a year after the onset of her condition Michael Schiavo was talking about moving in with another woman. He has since moved in with a women, been in a relationship with her for 10 years, and has fathered 2 children.


This is called getting on with life, and it is not evidence of murder. It's a stage that is reached eventually by all people who suffer the loss of a loved one. Some reach it earlier than others. I think this is unfair, to judge him on the rapidity of his healing process. While it might upset some of us, it's certainly not evidence of any wrong doing.


Originally posted by jukyu
7. Before her condition occured Michael Schiavo had been put on several drugs for anger management, had lost several jobs due to his temper, was living off of his wives income which he frequently overspent, and on the day of the supposed heart attack he had gotten into a fight with her about spending too much money at a hair dresser. In a previous altercation involving Mr. Schiavo his doctor had suggested that in future altercations the police should be called.


"Which he frequently overspent" I assume this is testimony from her family members who wish to see him in jail? The fact that he was a violent man is definitely disturbing, and it could very well be the best piece of, albeit still circumstantial, evidence in this case.


Originally posted by jukyu
8. Michael Schiavo was offered $1 million to walk away and give up custody. He turned it down. This leaves one of two very different possibilites. Either Schiavo is very much trying to follow his wives wishes, or he knows if he accepts the money that he could be criminally implicated if Terri were rehabilitated.


Wasn't he also offered 10 million at some point? In any case, with 1 million dollars one can live the good life in any number of tropical paradises. If he killed her, I'm genuinely surprised he didn't take the money and run. That being said, he can only be criminally implicated by her legal guardians, and so that would most likely happen regardless of whether he took the money or not. Keep in mind, this is a case that is currently being tried in the court of public opinion, and that being the case, accepting the money would be tantamount to a guilty plea.


Originally posted by jukyu
9. Over 30 doctors have gone on the record stating that Terri Schiavo is not in a persistant vegitative state and has a good chance of being rehabilitated.


What's a good chance? Were any figures tossed around, percentages? When did those doctors testify? 15 years ago? Last week? Spread out over the entire span? If most of them testified to this a decade or more ago, they must be feeling pretty foolish by now...
If they testified recently, perhaps there is hope for her. Sometimes it takes the brain decades to recover..usually it doesn't recover at all. Most people who suffer brain death don't ever wake up, they have too much necrosis in their brain tissue to allow proper transmission of electrical impulses. It's like trying to make a call across broken wires. It's not impossible, not at all, but it is improbable.


Originally posted by jukyu
10. The judge in the case, which has consistently ruled in the husbands favor, has allowed several laws to be broken and is liable should any investigation occur. These liabilities involved neglect perpetrated on Terri by her husband in the last several years as her guardian. They are covered in this article.


It's my understanding that judges cannot be held criminally liable for decisions made on the bench, excepting cases in which they first get disrobed and tried by the state. The precedent for this sort of action is rare. Most judges who screw up simply leave their robe at the office and depart in shame. Most actually move to other states and resume their jobs as judges. Scary little legal fact there. I don't know the man, so I'm not going to make judgements on his character or his intentions. We hold judges to a high standard of ethics, but we also give them the benefit of the doubt because they worked extraordinarily hard to get where they are.


Originally posted by jukyu
11. The husband never stated that Terri Schiavo wanted to die until after the verdict rewarding her and her guardian money for her care. This was also around the time that he stopped rehabilitative care and other therapies and asked if anything could be done to hasten her death.


Interesting fact, circumstantial, but incriminating in the court of public opinion. Of course, he could just be a cold hearted pragmatist, wanting to capitalize as much as possible on the unfortunate events. Being cold hearted doesn't make you a murderer. Remember, murderers are imprisoned for LONG periods of time and have many other rights taken away. Criminal courts require a substantial burden of proof precisely because of this fact.


Originally posted by jukyu
12. Terri Schiavo is not on life support. She breathes on her own. The only thing that she is receiving is food and water through a feeding tube. This is not life support such as a resperator. Food and water are provided to any patient, no matter what their condition. We even give those condemned to death a last meal.


She has basic, unconscious processes intact, which explains the blinking, and the head turning as well. If she can't feel pain, starvation is not an issue. The fact that she's not on a respirator doesn't mean she's not a vegetable, necessarily. Once again though, a compelling piece of 'evidence' in the court of public opinion.


Originally posted by jukyu
This same judge is now in contempt of Congress as he is actively trying to bring death to a person that has been subpeanoed before congress. Take this information as you will.


Well, one could see this as a states rights vs. federal power issue, or one could see it as an evil judge versus righteous Republicans issue. It really depends on the paradigm you go into this thing with.

I want to again congratulate you on a very informative, and thought provoking piece of journalism. I can honestly say I know about the situation after reading your post than I did beforehand. Thanks! I'm sure all of ATS appreciates your effort.


By the way, I'm really only playing devil's advocate. I feel strongly about the states rights issue, but this case isn't emotional for me, so I'm not boxed into one perspective.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:42 PM
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I really have a lot of fears about the states rights issue too. I was pretty shocked by what congress did. However, it looks like there is a situation where a state judge is in a conspiracy (not concious between them that we know of but it is in both of their best interests) to kill a woman and therefore very much deny her her constitutional rights. Oh here's another link from a nobel prize nominated doctor who works specifically with people that are in Terri's condition. He says he's rehabilitated worse and she could actually return to an independant lifestyle.

www.lifenews.com...

Oh and to counter some of your answers to my post.

1. It has been stated that he did not administer CPR from several sources. I'm trying to find out if this was from testimony from the husband or where it came from.

2. The bone scan was done within too short a period of her being bedridden for the breaks to have been caused by decalcification or anything like that. Plus the experts said it didn't look like that anyway, it looked like injuries caused by trauma.

5. Can they refuse autopsy if there is cause to believe that foul play was involved? That would be impeding a criminal investigation.

6. I agree with you that he should be able to get on with his life. I'm just using it to show a pattern that he definetely moved on and quite quickly, even while saying he would stay with his wife to the bitter end.

7. It would be interesting to see if there were some bounced checks or anything from this period.

10. He broke some specific laws such as not ruling on motions involving Terri within a 2 year period. At the very least he could be put in an uncomfortable position if an abuse investigation were started.

12. So many people say that she responds to stimulus, even the nobel prize winning doctor I just linked above. Also an interesting note, the husband has not allowed cameras in her room in 5 years so any footage you see of her is very old.



[edit on 18-3-2005 by jukyu]



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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Click here to read about Kate's recent efforts to help save Terri Schiavo.





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[edit on 18-3-2005 by dgtempe]



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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jukyu
I read that doctor's opinion after being directed to it from another post I think. Once again, just playing devil's advocate, if we're assuming the worst about everyone, and not relying on evidenciary procedure, then this doctor is only in it for the money he'll get from having another long-term, subsidized, therapy case on his roster.

Just sayin'...



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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Well as I said, I started off thinking the husband was doing the right thing and it was just the parents wanting to save their daughter even though there was no hope. However, as more and more comes out it just looks more and more sinister.



posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 10:00 PM
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I definitely agree that the case appears sinister. There are a lot of unexplained factors, strange coincidences, failures to follow what one would consider normal patterns of behavior. That applies to the judge as well as her husband. There's definitely some foul wind blowing around on this case.

But of course appearances can be deceiving.

I'll be interested to see what happens when this makes it into civil court after her death. I doubt it will see criminal court, but it's possible, given our representatives' recently evidenced penchant for bending laws.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess. Thank you for your replies, that pretty much cleared up my questions, with the exception of #1. I'm still going to reserve judgement though, there's just so many inconsistencies, I wonder if it wasn't all staged for the benefit of the powers that be.

Like i said, I'm going to wait and see what develops.



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