as posted by dgtempe
Well, dang, for a hundred years or so this has been controlled by the teachers and parents.

Now, with your blessing, it will be common practice to arrest your toddlers and tots.

dgtempe, when I went to school, if this would have happened, the teacher would have had the authority of the parents to discipline this child as she should have been: restrained and/or spanked, without fear of being SUED.

Times have changed in 100 years, whether you want to admit it or not. School today is not the same school of yesteryears. Now enters being sued and lawyers. The teachers and the school systems hands are now TIED. As such, today's parents are doing what to prevent this from happening in school? Just read the article and the mother's response and you shall see. Can you say: L-A-W-Y-E-R?




seekerof

If I may, I'd like to ask responders to this thread to avoid attacking each other directly, and instead stick to the main issues.

1. Why are cops necessary now, when they weren't ten years ago? There were no deadly weapons (guns, knives) involved in this situation keep in mind.

2. Why are our laws, ostensibly created to protect children, hamstringing discipline? How can our laws be amended to fix this?

3. What the hell is wrong with kids these days? (I'm too young to be saying that, something is definitely wrong here )

I know it's hard to keep cool when kids are involved..god forbid it was my daughter, first off, she would be begging the cops to let her go to jail, and second, there would be some words between me and the administration, unpleasant words. Those words might be delivered via handwritten note attached to my size 15 work boot, depending on the attitude I got from the principal and teacher.

Of course, I would hope my kid would never behave in such a fashion, and I probably wouldn't put my kid in a public school, I much prefer the idea of home schooling. But that aside...let's discuss, not fight...

You guys are acting like someone took away your jellybeans... j/k

I believe this incident highlights a serious problem that schools and other institutions in our society are facing. America has a real problem with authority; that's nothing new and it's often a good thing. In recent times though it has gone too far. You can't blame anyone for anything- everyone has a disorder to explain their behavior. Of greater relevance to this particular case, you can't use force against anyone for any reason.

The problem is that an institution such as a school must have order, which means rules. Rules are only good if they can be enforced. But you can't enforce rules, because it is absolutely forbidden to lay hands on somebody in 99% of all cases, especially where teachers and students are concerned. So they have to call the police, because the police have the authority to lay hands on you and enforce the rules. It may seem over the top, but that's the logical result of this ultra-litigious society that puts authority on trial for violating somebody's "right" to be out of control.

Here's the answer in my humble opinion: we need a federal code of teachers rights that gives clear definitions of what a teacher can do to enforce order in the classroom. The teacher has to be able to take a kid by the wrist and restrain them while they call to get a witness/help from the office. They need to be able to do this with no fear of being sued just for dealing with an unruly kid.


To add my own little anecdote to the situation, check this out. I don't know if this is wide-spread, but my school had a police liaison on campus at all times- often two or three. It takes police officers to keep order in a high school. Except in Mr. Kaiser's classroom. My 70 year old English teacher kept a 3-foot long 2x4 board in front of the room by his desk, and while explaining rules on the first day of school announced that under the school's anti-gang policy everyone who participated in a fight would be arrested and booked, and therefore that if any of us messed with him, he was going to make the most of it before being arrested. (This was because the previous year a teacher had been assaulted by, and had knocked out a student, and was in fact arrested, but eventually cleared of any wrong-doing.)

Personally, and I think a significant amount of teachers [part-time or full-time] will almost agree: school has become nothing but one big babystting service with NO rights or limited abilities to control or intervene appropriately when "babysitting' those parents children. Education has taken a backseat.




seekerof

I can say: C-A-L-L T-H-E- P-A-R-EN-T-S.

I can see confining the child to an office with the principal.

I can see any number of situations where this super powerful 5-year old can be subdued until parents arrive and take her home.

I can see responsibility and tact in handling this situation. But i'm not a teacher. I work for airlines.

Fine example of POLLITICAL CORRECTNESS and how out of hand it is when you cant smack a child to tell it off or let it know its done something dangerous...............

fear off prosicution is high better to do nothing nowdays than something thats probably why police were called in....

its a joke this worlds gone mad MAD i say pollitical correctness this and that bla bla bla its all out of hand kids now days have no respect for anything they even go on rampages with guns in schools past 10 or so years, when did this ever happen in past pre 90's???? id say hmm NEVER or so rare its unheard off unlike todays BS, i really dread what world will come to in 30 years or so with these kids running the country's ie OMGzor you insulted me now you diezor launch the nukezors........

with hardly any powers now like its illegal in UK to smack a child to tell it off, schools have zero power. Just look at most kids now days they run rampant care free knowing they get away with it, they dont give a # zero respect its sad but true... (not all kids but hell of alot) if you ask me they need a good smack and learn thier place in the world and some respect.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by blobby]

Schools have most definitely degenerated into prisons in recent years. There is no call for that, but to be fair, it's because of the parents, not because of the schools.

These days, the parents see having children as an inconvenience, effecting their ability to work and party and do their own thing.

Parents of older generations knew what it meant to take responsibility. When you have a child, your life as you know it ends. Simple. You have to dedicate every waking moment to the child until they're old enough to have a love interest, I think that's the rule.

Seriously though, there has been a tragic breakdown of discipline, and more important, education, in the home. It used to be, kids learned most everything they needed to know from their parents, in terms of how to interact with other people, how to behave in public places, how to comport themselves in general.

More and more, those duties are falling on the schools, who are tasked with training a room full of hyper midgets. It's exhausting, and teachers are leaving the profession like rats from a sinking ship. On top of it, it's generally accepted that men instill greater discipline in the classroom simply by their presence, and the number of male teachers is at all time lows. Men are leaving for three reasons, according to one recent study I read, 1) low pay 2) fear of lawsuits 3) stigma against male teachers (only a pervert would want to work with kids - believe it or not this is the perception).

I realize this is a tangent, but I thought it was interesting enough to bring up, but not interesting enough for its own thread.

Anyhow, can we all agree the problem lies with the parents, not just with this girl, but across the country?

Talking by experience in the school system and the way things are handle in the state I work at, we do not have "Yet" a 5 year old in handcuff.

If the parents can not work with the school system then other ways are pursue and I am very glad that we have alternative choices.

If we are going to call the police on every kindergarten that have a temper tantrum, then we should move the police station to the elementary school playground.

Here is a tip for all you people that think this child shoud not have been restrained:
1. Write a Congressman and tell them you concerns and that you wish to introduce a bill that allows the teachers to restrain children.

LOL! I'm sure your gonna get A LOT of support! (Sarcasm)

You know...I was thinking I'd be enraged too, if those jelly beans had been mostly the black ones. If my teacher took them away just because I was giggling at my good luck....well...I'd just freak out!

It's the teacher that deserves the blame...stealing candy from a baby...the oldest game in the book for bad adults.

Originally posted by National Security Agency
Here is a tip for all you people that think this child shoud not have been restrained:
1. Write a Congressman and tell them you concerns and that you wish to introduce a bill that allows the teachers to restrain children.

LOL! I'm sure your gonna get A LOT of support! (Sarcasm)

Actually we have papers for parents to sign if they agree with corporal punishment in elementary school.

So it is ways to control children with parents consent.

Originally posted by marg6043
If we are going to call the police on every kindergarten that have a temper tantrum, then we should move the police station to the elementary school playground.

Well marg, I think this situation was much more extreme than the average temper tantrum, but you make a very good point. I read the other day, 4 year old shoots 2 year old, and then today, 6 year old shoots 9 year old. It's out of control, and there has to be a point if these keeps up where it doesn't make any sense to separate schools and prisons.

They already appear to serve the same function, since very little learning gets done, if literacy, math, and science scores are any indication. In fact, I'd wager a dollar that prison inmates are more studious than most high school students.

So I ask of you, what sort of world are we heading for, if we extrapolate current events, assuming they continue to accelerate at the current pace? Will homeschooling simply pick up the slack? Doubtful, since parents don't have enough time to even talk to their kids nevermind teach them anything. Will prison-style boarding schools become popular with parents eager to rid themselves of the menaces they are responsible for creating? Or will things simply chug along as they have been for the past couple of decades until all our kids are little more than grubby, feral creatures roaming the streets and learning the hard lessons in life early?

Originally posted by National Security Agency
Here is a tip for all you people that think this child shoud not have been restrained:
1. Write a Congressman and tell them you concerns and that you wish to introduce a bill that allows the teachers to restrain children.

LOL! I'm sure your gonna get A LOT of support! (Sarcasm)

The fun never stops, does it?!

as posted by Marg
Actually we have papers for parents to sign if they agree with corporal punishment in elementary school.

So it is ways to control children with parents consent.

Yep.....one tool out of how many taken away or so bogged in bureaucratic 'red tape' that seeking corrective action is amounting to an act of Congress? Just how many parents today allow or give permission to the school or teachers, Marg? Very, very few.

The discipline of yesteryears has turned to "I had that happen to me, so I will make sure it won't happen to my kids." This incident, involving ANY age level, would have been met with stern and swift action. Paddling was the norm when I went to school. You? Then on top of worrying about being paddled in school for doing as this little girl did, then when you got home, you had to answer to dad or mom, and 7 times out of 10, you got spanked/paddled far worse than you thought in school.

Society today has become so tolerant of such actions, that when action is taken, it was or IS wrong. It was not within the "rights" of that correcting teacher or school administration. Then came being sued based on violation of "rights" and lawyers became the norm, and still are.

Guess what, now there is a major shortage of teachers. Between 2006 and 2008, the shortage will be OVER two million teachers nationwide. Problem? You bet! Something better change, because if it don't, you will see a total collapse of the educational system in this country. I guess thats why I moved from babysitting highschool students to teaching college students [freshmen] and researching. Till things change, I will not drop back to teaching high school no time soon.






seekerof

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by marg6043
Actually we have papers for parents to sign if they agree with corporal punishment in elementary school.

So it is ways to control children with parents consent.

Are you a Floridian teacher? Laws are different in each state. I'm sure the ones that sign the papers don't have the bezerk children.

Nationa Security,

How do you know? Where you there? How can you be sure of anything?

People, people...

Let's back up. Let's pretend for a second that this case never happened.

What changes can be made to current accepted practices to prevent it from happening? Jettison emotions for a second and let's think about WHY this happened, HOW it can be prevented in the future, and WHAT the motivations were behind the reaction of police.

We know why the mother acted the way she did. We know why the child acted the way she did (or at least we all accept that kids are getting wilder though we may differ on the actual cause in this isolated instance - mostly for lack of information). I want to know why the police didn't tell the school to deal with it, or call the parents, or verbally discipline the child. Is national hysteria to blame, or were the officers simply not able to use the above methods? I do find that a little hard to swallow, I mean are we to believe that an officer of the law can intimidate crack addicts and street hustlers, but he can't quiet a little girl with a loud shout or an angry glare? I want to hear other people's opinions on this issue though.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
People, people...

Let's back up. Let's pretend for a second that this case never happened.

What changes can be made to current accepted practices to prevent it from happening? Jettison emotions for a second and let's think about WHY this happened, HOW it can be prevented in the future, and WHAT the motivations were behind the reaction of police.

We know why the mother acted the way she did. We know why the child acted the way she did (or at least we all accept that kids are getting wilder though we may differ on the actual cause in this isolated instance - mostly for lack of information). I want to know why the police didn't tell the school to deal with it, or call the parents, or verbally discipline the child. Is national hysteria to blame, or were the officers simply not able to use the above methods? I do find that a little hard to swallow, I mean are we to believe that an officer of the law can intimidate crack addicts and street hustlers, but he can't quiet a little girl with a loud shout or an angry glare? I want to hear other people's opinions on this issue though.

First off, I think the officer did what an officer is being paid to do, nothing more nothing less. I imagine the idea is to give her a peak into the future of what happens when you throw a violent fit as an adult, which she will be some day very soon.

Second, I hope the kid learned a lesson about discipline and how to act in a manner that is not violent especially in public. This should be the job of the parents as well as the teacher to some degree and to even a lesser degree it is also the responsibility of any other "Mature Intelligent Adult" that she associates with.

Third, the mother is going to complicate things by "babying" her child and making it seem as if it's perfectly ok to throw a violent fit over losing your jellybeans, which was her fault to begin with. ALL PARENTS NEED TO TEACH THEIR CHILDREN TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES!! The earlier they learn that the better it is for them and everyone else.

Personally, I think the teacher should have removed the child from the classroom before things got too ugly, walked her down to the office where someone else could take over from there and call her parents or whatever and allowing the teacher to return to her class asap.

EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention that in that last statement, in handling it the way I described there would be no reason for Police to be involved. They have better things to do like solving REAL CRIMES. I have no doubt that any adult, including this teacher, can handle a five years old. My niece if 5 and even at her most violent it is nothing that any grown person could not handle unless they are lame or inept. I should hope that is not the case when it comes to the people who are supposed to be professionals in our schools.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by mOjOm]

Originally posted by PistolPete
It has nothing to do with a police state, nothing to do with the President, and everything to do with, as seekerof said, litigation. Which we as American people brought upon ourselves.

Yes, this girl is a criminal. She's guilty of assault and destruction of public property, just to name a few.

Funny how people always know how to handle a situation they weren't in better than the people that were.

Technically she IS a criminal, but she didn't have to be. If the laws were different, she would simply be a child with a behavior problem, nothing adults couldn't handle.

I disagree with you that a litigious society is not a form of police state. The people who benefit MOST from a police state are the lawyers. By criminalizing 75% of the country through various laws, the lawyers have essentially guaranteed their steady flow of clients. This was of course necessary the moment there were more students in law school in any given year than practicing lawyers. Supply and demand.

In the case of America, the demand was too high for criminals, the supply couldn't support the demand. However, rather than decrease the number of lawyers, this country chose to increase the number of criminals.

There are crimes that necessitate the police, certainly. Kids with a joint, or kids throwing temper tantrums, or kids who write stories about zombies taking over their school, are not in need of police intervention, in my humble opinion. These kids are in need of active, concerned parents, and a stern, uncompromising school system.

I understand the position being taken by those who don't think the teachers should be put in harms way, and who think the child needs to be protected at all costs, but think about these two goals for a second...

No child should be able to hurt an adult (severely) without the aid of some kind of weapon. Are police really better at protecting people from harm than teachers, parents, and school administrators? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I think this is a clarion call to change those laws that criminalize teachers and parents for disciplining their children. Most people can agree there is a wide margin between abuse and discipline. I don't think we need to confuse the two, especially not if it proves to be a detriment to the children, who are the number one priority (or at least they should be).

I'm not arguing procedure, I'm arguing precedent. The precedent needs to change, in my opinion.