NEWS: 5 Year Old Girl Arrested, Handcuffed Following Outburst, page 3
Pages: <<  1    2    3    4  >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 0 times


reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 05:40 PM by The Vagabond
I believe this incident highlights a serious problem that schools and other institutions in our society are facing. America has a real problem with authority; that's nothing new and it's often a good thing. In recent times though it has gone too far. You can't blame anyone for anything- everyone has a disorder to explain their behavior. Of greater relevance to this particular case, you can't use force against anyone for any reason.

The problem is that an institution such as a school must have order, which means rules. Rules are only good if they can be enforced. But you can't enforce rules, because it is absolutely forbidden to lay hands on somebody in 99% of all cases, especially where teachers and students are concerned. So they have to call the police, because the police have the authority to lay hands on you and enforce the rules. It may seem over the top, but that's the logical result of this ultra-litigious society that puts authority on trial for violating somebody's "right" to be out of control.

Here's the answer in my humble opinion: we need a federal code of teachers rights that gives clear definitions of what a teacher can do to enforce order in the classroom. The teacher has to be able to take a kid by the wrist and restrain them while they call to get a witness/help from the office. They need to be able to do this with no fear of being sued just for dealing with an unruly kid.


To add my own little anecdote to the situation, check this out. I don't know if this is wide-spread, but my school had a police liaison on campus at all times- often two or three. It takes police officers to keep order in a high school. Except in Mr. Kaiser's classroom. My 70 year old English teacher kept a 3-foot long 2x4 board in front of the room by his desk, and while explaining rules on the first day of school announced that under the school's anti-gang policy everyone who participated in a fight would be arrested and booked, and therefore that if any of us messed with him, he was going to make the most of it before being arrested. (This was because the previous year a teacher had been assaulted by, and had knocked out a student, and was in fact arrested, but eventually cleared of any wrong-doing.)



reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 05:57 PM by WyrdeOne
Schools have most definitely degenerated into prisons in recent years. There is no call for that, but to be fair, it's because of the parents, not because of the schools.

These days, the parents see having children as an inconvenience, effecting their ability to work and party and do their own thing.

Parents of older generations knew what it meant to take responsibility. When you have a child, your life as you know it ends. Simple. You have to dedicate every waking moment to the child until they're old enough to have a love interest, I think that's the rule.

Seriously though, there has been a tragic breakdown of discipline, and more important, education, in the home. It used to be, kids learned most everything they needed to know from their parents, in terms of how to interact with other people, how to behave in public places, how to comport themselves in general.

More and more, those duties are falling on the schools, who are tasked with training a room full of hyper midgets. It's exhausting, and teachers are leaving the profession like rats from a sinking ship. On top of it, it's generally accepted that men instill greater discipline in the classroom simply by their presence, and the number of male teachers is at all time lows. Men are leaving for three reasons, according to one recent study I read, 1) low pay 2) fear of lawsuits 3) stigma against male teachers (only a pervert would want to work with kids - believe it or not this is the perception).

I realize this is a tangent, but I thought it was interesting enough to bring up, but not interesting enough for its own thread.

Anyhow, can we all agree the problem lies with the parents, not just with this girl, but across the country?


reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 06:25 PM by Seekerof
as posted by Marg
Actually we have papers for parents to sign if they agree with corporal punishment in elementary school.

So it is ways to control children with parents consent.

Yep.....one tool out of how many taken away or so bogged in bureaucratic 'red tape' that seeking corrective action is amounting to an act of Congress? Just how many parents today allow or give permission to the school or teachers, Marg? Very, very few.

The discipline of yesteryears has turned to "I had that happen to me, so I will make sure it won't happen to my kids." This incident, involving ANY age level, would have been met with stern and swift action. Paddling was the norm when I went to school. You? Then on top of worrying about being paddled in school for doing as this little girl did, then when you got home, you had to answer to dad or mom, and 7 times out of 10, you got spanked/paddled far worse than you thought in school.

Society today has become so tolerant of such actions, that when action is taken, it was or IS wrong. It was not within the "rights" of that correcting teacher or school administration. Then came being sued based on violation of "rights" and lawyers became the norm, and still are.

Guess what, now there is a major shortage of teachers. Between 2006 and 2008, the shortage will be OVER two million teachers nationwide. Problem? You bet! Something better change, because if it don't, you will see a total collapse of the educational system in this country. I guess thats why I moved from babysitting highschool students to teaching college students [freshmen] and researching. Till things change, I will not drop back to teaching high school no time soon.






seekerof

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Seekerof]


reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 07:49 PM by mOjOm
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
People, people...

Let's back up. Let's pretend for a second that this case never happened.

What changes can be made to current accepted practices to prevent it from happening? Jettison emotions for a second and let's think about WHY this happened, HOW it can be prevented in the future, and WHAT the motivations were behind the reaction of police.

We know why the mother acted the way she did. We know why the child acted the way she did (or at least we all accept that kids are getting wilder though we may differ on the actual cause in this isolated instance - mostly for lack of information). I want to know why the police didn't tell the school to deal with it, or call the parents, or verbally discipline the child. Is national hysteria to blame, or were the officers simply not able to use the above methods? I do find that a little hard to swallow, I mean are we to believe that an officer of the law can intimidate crack addicts and street hustlers, but he can't quiet a little girl with a loud shout or an angry glare? I want to hear other people's opinions on this issue though.


First off, I think the officer did what an officer is being paid to do, nothing more nothing less. I imagine the idea is to give her a peak into the future of what happens when you throw a violent fit as an adult, which she will be some day very soon.

Second, I hope the kid learned a lesson about discipline and how to act in a manner that is not violent especially in public. This should be the job of the parents as well as the teacher to some degree and to even a lesser degree it is also the responsibility of any other "Mature Intelligent Adult" that she associates with.

Third, the mother is going to complicate things by "babying" her child and making it seem as if it's perfectly ok to throw a violent fit over losing your jellybeans, which was her fault to begin with. ALL PARENTS NEED TO TEACH THEIR CHILDREN TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES!! The earlier they learn that the better it is for them and everyone else.

Personally, I think the teacher should have removed the child from the classroom before things got too ugly, walked her down to the office where someone else could take over from there and call her parents or whatever and allowing the teacher to return to her class asap.

EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention that in that last statement, in handling it the way I described there would be no reason for Police to be involved. They have better things to do like solving REAL CRIMES. I have no doubt that any adult, including this teacher, can handle a five years old. My niece if 5 and even at her most violent it is nothing that any grown person could not handle unless they are lame or inept. I should hope that is not the case when it comes to the people who are supposed to be professionals in our schools.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by mOjOm]


reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 07:52 PM by PistolPete
It's called Zero Tolerance. It came around due to all those pesky school shootings in the mid to late 90's. They don't screw around with kids anymore. It has nothing to do with a police state, nothing to do with the President, and everything to do with, as seekerof said, litigation. Which we as American people brought upon ourselves.

Yes, this girl is a criminal. She's guilty of assault and destruction of public property, just to name a few.

Funny how people always know how to handle a situation they weren't in better than the people that were.


reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 08:12 PM by WyrdeOne
Originally posted by PistolPete
It has nothing to do with a police state, nothing to do with the President, and everything to do with, as seekerof said, litigation. Which we as American people brought upon ourselves.

Yes, this girl is a criminal. She's guilty of assault and destruction of public property, just to name a few.

Funny how people always know how to handle a situation they weren't in better than the people that were.


Technically she IS a criminal, but she didn't have to be. If the laws were different, she would simply be a child with a behavior problem, nothing adults couldn't handle.

I disagree with you that a litigious society is not a form of police state. The people who benefit MOST from a police state are the lawyers. By criminalizing 75% of the country through various laws, the lawyers have essentially guaranteed their steady flow of clients. This was of course necessary the moment there were more students in law school in any given year than practicing lawyers. Supply and demand.

In the case of America, the demand was too high for criminals, the supply couldn't support the demand. However, rather than decrease the number of lawyers, this country chose to increase the number of criminals.

There are crimes that necessitate the police, certainly. Kids with a joint, or kids throwing temper tantrums, or kids who write stories about zombies taking over their school, are not in need of police intervention, in my humble opinion. These kids are in need of active, concerned parents, and a stern, uncompromising school system.

I understand the position being taken by those who don't think the teachers should be put in harms way, and who think the child needs to be protected at all costs, but think about these two goals for a second...

No child should be able to hurt an adult (severely) without the aid of some kind of weapon. Are police really better at protecting people from harm than teachers, parents, and school administrators? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I think this is a clarion call to change those laws that criminalize teachers and parents for disciplining their children. Most people can agree there is a wide margin between abuse and discipline. I don't think we need to confuse the two, especially not if it proves to be a detriment to the children, who are the number one priority (or at least they should be).

I'm not arguing procedure, I'm arguing precedent. The precedent needs to change, in my opinion.
Pages: <<  1    2    3    4  >>    ^^TOP^^



Russian scientists reach buried Antarctic Lake Vostok
  Posted 4 days ago with 83 member flags
Monsanto quits as GM results announced (EUROPE)
  Posted 6 days ago with 72 member flags
Strange noises reported around North Battleford
  Posted 17 days ago with 67 member flags
Ayatollah: Kill all Jews, annihilate Israel
  Posted 5 days ago with 49 member flags