that is f****** funny god its not like you see that every day now do ya

dgtempe, Marg?
Are both of you showing indications of "uncontrolled fits of rage"?

Get a grip!
The PROBLEM is with the school and the parents, period.
As for where I am from, apparently Marg, you do not have a real clue. Hello?!
Do I have kids?
Makes no difference does it?
I have been through the educational program for teachers and have taken, succesfully, the PRAXIS testings. Care to wonder which country where PRAXIS testing are held?

I have identified the problem, despite your continued "protective" womanly instincts, k?
The problem is with the school and the parents!



seekerof

And the cops for treating the kid like an animal

The cop(s) are doing their job given the circumstances they were placed in.

You are the cop, you would have done what any different?



seekerof

As a teacher I can tell you that this is where we are now and its because of the courts and lawsuits. It used to be in this situation the child probably would have been restrained by the administration, probably spanked, and would most likely have faced hell on earth when her parents found out.

Now, you restrain the kid and they break a nail you get sued. You call the parents and you get sued because "my child is perfect and its your fault." So, I'm telling you basically we have procedures now that in situations like this the police are called because its the only way we can restore order without a year long legal battle. You want things to get better, return some responsibility to children and parents and get rid of the lawyers except when there is a real case of abuse. Until then I can tell you, a lot of the good teachers are leaving in droves because we can no longer do our job within normal bounds without being sued, yelled at by a parent, or threatened with being fired. Speaking from personal experience I had to remove a student from my classroom once because they were badly disrupting my classroom during a federal test. There was even another teacher in the room, veteran of 20 plus years teacher, that initiated the action. A week later I was in front of the principal being accused by that student of sexual harassment with her mother in tow. You all ask why the public schools are going to hell? There's a lot of issues but here's a good place for you to start.

Teachers can't stop them, and now your wanting the cops to quit stopping children from potentially harming other children. Legally the teachers can't grab the child and stop them...............

Originally posted by jukyu
Now, you restrain the kid and they break a nail you get sued. You call the parents and you get sued because "my child is perfect and its your fault." So, I'm telling you basically we have procedures now that in situations like this the police are called because its the only way we can restore order without a year long legal battle. You want things to get better, return some responsibility to children and parents and get rid of the lawyers except when there is a real case of abuse. Until then I can tell you, a lot of the good teachers are leaving in droves because we can no longer do our job within normal bounds without being sued, yelled at by a parent, or threatened with being fired. Speaking from personal experience I had to remove a student from my classroom once because they were badly disrupting my classroom during a federal test. There was even another teacher in the room, veteran of 20 plus years teacher, that initiated the action. A week later I was in front of the principal being accused by that student of sexual harassment with her mother in tow. You all ask why the public schools are going to hell? There's a lot of issues but here's a good place for you to start.

So perfectly put. Congrats on explaining that to people. I'm not in the teaching field but hear a lot of stuff from relatives who are and they mirror the exact things you've just said.

A 5-year-old girl was arrested, cuffed and put in back of a police cruiser after an outburst at school where she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach and drew on the walls.

I think considering what the child did the school was right in calling the police. I also think that considering it was clearly a child that was out of control handcuffs were called for those plastic ties might have harmed her.

I am also willing to bet if teachers were still allowed to spank a child as they were years ago this child would have stopped in a heartbeat.

Just to make myself clear I am not advocating beating of any sort, however a quick spanking never hurts a kid when done properly without violence.

For those that believe she should not have been restrained, please describe how you would have handled this situation.

Keep in mind that you might be getting kicked, punched, and objects thrown at you or around you.

Seekerof has you been in a classroom with children? do you know that is procedures and rules to follow when it comes to children's behavior, do you know that is the job of the teacher to identify a behavior problem before it happens.

I have witnessed before schizophrenic children interacting in a regular classroom and I have seen what happen when they don't have medication.

I have seen children biting teachers, I have seen crack affected children without medication in a classroom also.

We have regulations as what to do in situations with "elementary" school children behavior, and "police" and "handcuffs" are not part of the options.

And in a 5 year old child, a five year old is just to hard to swallow.

We have people in the schools here were I live that are permanent in school to deal with situations like that.

You said the school and the parents are to blame, and you may be right, but the police has not right to hand cuff a 5 year old child.

If you have children or grandchildren just picture one of them throwing a temper tantrum and you putting handcuffs on the 5 year old child.

I tell you something for sure you will go to jail if somebody tells.

Now what are they going to charge the child with? terrorist acts.

Or they are going to charge the parents also as terrorist for creating a time bomb in the body of a child?

Any way you put it is ridiculous.

Wow! I don't even know what to do about this flurry of responses.

I will start by saying this clearly indicates a problem with discipline in the home. That's the first thought I had upon reading the story.

Secondly, all things considered, the primary goal of the cops once they showed up should have been to talk to the girl. They're trained in conflict resolution, and the teachers are supposed to be well versed in this area as well.

Now, we can assume they tried and failed, or we can assume they didn't try at all. I think either assumption assumes too much.

Like usual, we don't have enough information to make accurate judgements. I'd like to give the cops and the teacher the benefit of the doubt, but given my prior experience with lazy, petulant adults, it wouldn't surprise me to find that they didn't have the patience to deal with the girl. Now, I agree that the problem originated at home, and not in the school, but the school had to deal with it, and that's where restraint comes in.

I think the cops were just trying to prevent her from hurting herself. If they had grabbed her by the shoulders or the waist, and she kept flailing, she could easily have dislocated her own shoulder or broken a wrist or ankle bone. Then the cops would be facing an even bigger lawsuit and greater public outrage.

Is this a case of the lesser of two evils? Forced into a difficult position, the cops chose the option least likely to injure the child, and I think that was probably a good decision.

They could have bear hugged her, but then they risk breaking ribs, and serious internal injury. They might even be charged with molestation, seeing how litigious our society has become. The cops were in a really uncomfortable situation, and in my opinon they shouldn't have been there to have to deal with this.

My main question is why the police were called in the first place? The police shouldn't be necessary to discipline children this young. They were never called to my school, and I was a trouble maker..let me tell you.

When I was six, I got mad at my teacher for stopping me from writing and making me take a nap. I didn't want to take a nap, she insisted. Well, I retaliated not by hitting, but by climbing on top of the bookshelf and spitting at her like bawdy little monkeys do. hmmm.. Not my proudest moment, I'll admit. My only defense is..I was six.

Now, to the teacher's credit she tried to coax me down, and when that was unsuccessful she didn't call in the swat team, helicopters were not deployed, she simply buzzed the principal (this was before the era of security guards in schools mind you). The principal came in, got up on a chair, and dragged me down. He made me sit in his office and wait for my parents. I don't remember the details, but I'm fairly sure I never punched him in the stomach.

Now, as an adult, I've been beaten up by kids. They hit hard! They fight dirty! As I speak, there are young children running wild in the street outside my house, taking turns calling each other "asshole."

There's obviously a very dramatic shift in the direction of lawlessness when it comes to children. I don't know if it's because parents can't hit their children anymore, or if because parents are too busy to provide counseling, or what. I suspect that the fact is parents spend less time with their children than ever before, and as such, the children have no idea how to behave.

Originally posted by Seekerof
The cop(s) are doing their job given the circumstances they were placed in.

You are the cop, you would have done what any different?



seekerof

What i'm trying to tell you is there was no NEED for the cops to handcuff the little girl and treat her like a common criminal.
Dont you get that?

What i'm saying doesnt register with you, Seekerof, do society a favor, and once in awhile come out of your war-mode. Its very unbecoming when it relates to little children.

ITS THE TEACHERS FAULT, AND THE FAULT OF ALL THOSE IN THIS SILLY MESS. My question is- Did the cops have to carry her off like a common criminal????? This is ludicrous.

mod edit: fixed quote tag

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Spectre]

Yo, Spanish teacher Marg.

You would have done what differently given the circumstances and the childs aggressive "uncontrolled rage"?

You continued twisting of this only condemns that you do not or are not objectively looking at this as a teacher, k? Cause apparently it was a teacher that went to the office and the office is who called the police.

The police acted properly, and if not, they should have also done what differently.

Your arguing symantics and in objective denial, period.





seekerof

[edit on 18-3-2005 by Seekerof]

Well, let me put it this way in defense of speekerof. If you try and get that child identified as having a condition which may be merited here is what will happen.

1. Their parent will be mortified that you're causing their child to be singled out and sue you for suggesting anything is wrong. This can be gotten around using school psychologists, case workers, etc. but it just feels evil using the government to circumvent a parent's rights concerning their child unless there is obvious abuse.

2. If the parent is receptive and gets their child identified and medicated they will be right back in the classroom this time with special modifications that a teacher is bound legally by law to follow because the current mindset is inclusion. So now you better hope they take their meds because if they come in and do the same thing because they didn't you can't suspend them because the tantrum was related to their illness. Plus, if you make the parent upset and they determine you have failed to follow one singular part of thet modifications (which can be rather complicated), you can be sued. I've had situations where I had 10 plus students in a classroom with these modifications and I was just praying I had them all straight. I want to be able to teach, I love teaching. I just want to be able to do it within a reasonable spectrum without the fear of being sued.

Actually the bear hug is the first thing to be used, to stop the child from hurting itself, now the police have to hold her down to hand cuff her also, so I don't see the difference on a bear hug and forcing hand cuffs on her hands.

And yes teachers are training on how to deal with problematic children and we can do or don't.

Specially with young children, when it comes to middle school and high school in a violent case the police is in the school at all times at least in my state.

as posted by dgtempe
What i'm trying to tell you is there was no NEED for the cops to handcuff the little girl and treat her like a common criminal.
Dont you get that?

Oh really? Let me remind of what was taking place:

...after an outburst at school where she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach and drew on the walls.

Hello?!
You would have done exactly what I said: nothing, if you had been the teacher. You simply would have watched as the little 5yo girl continued on her aggressive rampage which, unknowingly, could have harmed others, inculding other children. Great!




seekerof

Keep in mind we may not have the full story here. This week in the DC area the police have been looking for a 9 yr old pulling guns and chasing people down the street. This kid sounded like she went crazy - over JELLYBEANS? Someone mentioned she isn't an animal and doesn't deserve to be cuffed. Ever see a dog get his food taken away? She very well have been behaving like an animal. We don't know.

Anyhow, police aside, 5 yr olds aren't always as innocent as they appear, and perhaps this child was prone to out-of-control outbursts, perhaps the parents had been called in over and over and done nothing (which is more common than you realize), perhaps the parents were called and weren't able to respond fast enough, etc.

A friend of mine works as a guidance councellor at an elementary school in an inner city area. She is routinely assaulted by children, cursed at, spit on, defecated on by children who are often covered with lice, often Hep positive.... It's a virtual hell with some of these kids and they are uncontrollable. The parents are usually absent, apathetic, or too drugged up to care.

I wholeheartedly support the teacher's decision in this case. We don't know what happened, and if the teacher felt she could not control the situation, she found someone who could. Perhaps mom and dad will wake up and realize their child likely needs help.

Well, dang, for a hundred years or so this has been controlled by the teachers and parents.

Now, with your blessing, it will be common practice to arrest your toddlers and tots.

End of my tet a tet. I dont want my bp to go thru the roof>
Whats the point, anyway?

Seekerof I am a teacher and has been in the classroom and I will appreciate some respect here coming from you, after all I know what goes in a classroom and I have witnessed first hand.

"My mother instints" do not come into play when it comes with my job.

You are not a teacher and you are becoming hostile to Dg and me.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Well, dang, for a hundred years or so this has been controlled by the teachers and parents.

Now, with your blessing, it will be common practice to arrest your toddlers and tots.

If my child goes berzerk and physically assaults an adult or other classmates in the way this girl did I would support the teacher who called for help, and apologize to the teacher, the school, the other students and their parents for putting everyone through such an ordeal.

Parents often don't control their kids anymore - the kids control their parents in many cases. Parents are unwilling or afraid to discipline their kids. The days of getting a swift beating for disrespecting your elders are gone, and many parents don't know of any alternative so do nothing.