This is a compelling story!!! (Earth, Heaven, Hell)

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

No there would be no need for a bible because God would be all in all and therefore no need to know him his laws or anything. Because does not need us to accomplish his goals.

God's judgement with out a lake of fire is not good news but a lie.

I never said there was no Lake of Fire, and it seems to me that you do not even understand Universalism, though you condemn it.

originally posted by: Seede
to: Lazarus Short

Tell me, is your version of the Good News (Hell included) better News than the Good News I proclaim (without Hell)?

Yes. Without faith that the scriptures are truthful then one is left with unbelief. if one says in his heart that the scriptures lie then that is disbelief. How can that one who disbelieves one part of the same source then believe the rest of that source? If you believe that hell is a lie you are declaring that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all liars or that their scriptures are mistranslated.
Have you realized this?

Of course I realize it. Be aware that I have examined every book, chapter and verse of the KJV. I have tracked down the words (sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus) that "hell" is translated from, and I have traced "hell" the word and "hell" the concept back to their pagan roots. That's my answer: mistranslation.

You mention Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Did you ever notice that Paul, in his epistles, never once mentions "hell"? The four Gospels do only by way of mistranslation.

If some lack faith in the here and now, and seem lost to you, just remember that God is not done with His creation yet. He will yet be All in all, though some will come to Him only after the Lake of Fire. I do not advocate entry into the Kingdom under a shower of rose petals, as we will all be salted with fire - overcomers, not so much.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

But you only believe it is for who? Satan and his angels?

Why, if God will saved all men why not all the angels and cherub's who sinned as well, after all he will be the all in all. How can he be all in all if he destroys even one of his creations.

There is a real hell, the lake of fire, and when the old earth is done away and the old heavens melt every unsaved man will find themselves suddenly floating in heaven, before His throne and when their names are not found in the book of life (not the same book as the Lamb's book of Life) they will not be saved but continue their everlasting torment in the lake of fire. There is no after the lake of fire for anyone in it.

All in all has nothing to do with ALL men being saved in the end. You are deceived.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

But you only believe it is for who? Satan and his angels?

Why, if God will saved all men why not all the angels and cherub's who sinned as well, after all he will be the all in all. How can he be all in all if he destroys even one of his creations.

There is a real hell, the lake of fire, and when the old earth is done away and the old heavens melt every unsaved man will find themselves suddenly floating in heaven, before His throne and when their names are not found in the book of life (not the same book as the Lamb's book of Life) they will not be saved but continue their everlasting torment in the lake of fire. There is no after the lake of fire for anyone in it.

All in all has nothing to do with ALL men being saved in the end. You are deceived.

The fate of Satan and fallen angels is still up in the air - in fact, the Bible states that WE will judge them.

Even the KJV fails to ID the Lake of Fire as "Hell." Saying, as you do, that those that go in do not come out, is an over-reach, as the text leaves us hanging about their ultimate fate. However, knowing that God is a Refiner of men (I have done a long word study on this.) I see the LoF as the final refining of those thrown into it. In the end, they will come out with their dross (chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble) burned away, as we see in First Corinthians 3:15.

Let's be somewhat constructive, OK? Would you like me to share the word study with you? I have it in a form I can easily post here, and it is strictly Bible-based, with strictly minimal interpretation.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

MY Judgment has already been done.


How about yours?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The Bible, the Word of God, urges us not to judge before the time:

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." - First Corinthians 4:5, KJV

Damnationist theology turns judgment into condemnation and condemnation into damnation.

You really think God's purposes include eternal damnation? He says otherwise.

I guess you have no interest in my interesting word study. Why not at least pick up your own corcordance and look up "fire" and related words?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Yeah but in order for you to be correct God would have to for go his words found in the Bible and just give everyone a blanket salvation regardless of his judgement.

1Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Last I checked all things meant all things.

Are you saying you are spiritual context means SAVED by grace through faith.

I have no interest in those who twist the word of God.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Yeah but in order for you to be correct God would have to for go his words found in the Bible and just give everyone a blanket salvation regardless of his judgement.

1Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Last I checked all things meant all things.

Are you saying you are spiritual context means SAVED by grace through faith.

I have no interest in those who twist the word of God.

CJ, I really don't think you have understood what I have been trying to say. You seem to think I advocate everyone marching into the Kingdom under a shower of rose petals. No, that is not going to happen - lots of folks will need to endure the Lake of Fire, and it will NOT be pleasant. I do affirm that they, in the fullness of time, will be saved "as through fire" and then enter the Kingdom. I do not know and will not guess the fate of Satan and other fallen angels, for we have been shown everything. We have, however, been shown enough to have faith it a loving and holy Heavenly Father, Who will do right by His creation.

Now, what are you trying to say by, "Are you saying you are spiritual context means SAVED by grace through faith."?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The right thing is not letting a bunch of sinners not covered in Christ blood into heaven.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

The right thing is not letting a bunch of sinners not covered in Christ blood into heaven.

I agree...and that is what the LoF is there to prevent. The various fires in the Bible are either natural fire or the Holy Fire of God - Godfire. I was unable to find any mention of "Hellfire" in the Scriptures. We first meet Godfire when Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden, and barred re-entry by beings with flaming swords: flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom. Later, Moses meets the bush that is NOT consumed by the Fire, and so much for annihilation. Later still, Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by Godfire, but God states that He will restore their fortunes, and so much for damnation. The option that is left is that God's Fire is for the refinement of sinners (us), just as He describes Himself as a Refiner of men.

It's simple, really, and everyone will be salted with Fire, just as we saw in Acts, chapter 2.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I agree...and that is what the LoF is there to prevent. The various fires in the Bible are either natural fire or the Holy Fire of God - Godfire. I was unable to find any mention of "Hellfire" in the Scriptures.

KJV
Mark 9:43-44
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

a reply to: Seede

"Hell" in these verses is translated from "Gehenna" which was and is a valley hard by Jerusalem. You can visit it today, but in Jesus' time, it may well have been a trash dump, where refuse and the dead bodies of those not worthy of a proper burial were burned and/or devoured by worms. It is hardly a picture of the "Hell" of Dante, Milton or Mary K Baxter.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

It's simple, really, and everyone will be salted with Fire, just as we saw in Acts, chapter 2.

First Acts two is not the salting with fire of a tongue. Nor is this the baptism of fire, look at the context of those verses

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mr 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Lu 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The Context of these verse ALL have to do with Judgement not a

Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

"AS OF" simply means in the similitude of or the Likeness of. It is not a literal fire as the fires of Hell are, which are the fires where by his disciples will be salted, especially in the Tribulation. The context of "Everyone" in Mark 9:49 is not EVERY MAN as you have made it, but Everyone who will follow Christ. In a Kingdom Gospel( which is the only gospel at that time until after Act 9. You really need to study properly by the keeping context, rightly dividing and comparing scripture with Scriptures (spiritual with spiritual 2Cor 13). Anyone who would connect Acts 2:3 with Mark 9:49 is wrongly joining scriptures and is teaching a false doctrine of men.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

"Hell" in these verses is translated from "Gehenna" which was and is a valley hard by Jerusalem. You can visit it today, but in Jesus' time, it may well have been a trash dump, where refuse and the dead bodies of those not worthy of a proper burial were burned and/or devoured by worms. It is hardly a picture of the "Hell" of Dante, Milton or Mary K Baxter.

I do not understand your method of debate. You said "I was unable to find any mention of "Hellfire" in the Scriptures." Yet here it is directly from the Greek scriptures of the KJV bible.

Hebrew Gehenna from ge-hinnom is at best a transliteration of your understanding but is not a translation from Hebrew to Greek or to English. We are discussing the NT Greek scriptures and has nothing to do with Hebrew whatsoever. Actually it is a comparative of two very distinct places. Hell and Sheol would actually be more alike than ge-hinnom and hell.

It seems to me that you mix outside literature with biblical literature with references such as Dante, Milton or Mary K Baxter.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Lazarus Short

"Hell" in these verses is translated from "Gehenna" which was and is a valley hard by Jerusalem. You can visit it today, but in Jesus' time, it may well have been a trash dump, where refuse and the dead bodies of those not worthy of a proper burial were burned and/or devoured by worms. It is hardly a picture of the "Hell" of Dante, Milton or Mary K Baxter.

I do not understand your method of debate. You said "I was unable to find any mention of "Hellfire" in the Scriptures." Yet here it is directly from the Greek scriptures of the KJV bible.

Hebrew Gehenna from ge-hinnom is at best a transliteration of your understanding but is not a translation from Hebrew to Greek or to English. We are discussing the NT Greek scriptures and has nothing to do with Hebrew whatsoever. Actually it is a comparative of two very distinct places. Hell and Sheol would actually be more alike than ge-hinnom and hell.

It seems to me that you mix outside literature with biblical literature with references such as Dante, Milton or Mary K Baxter.

"Hellfire" is a theo-illogical idea, but the fires of Gehenna burned in the real world. It is a place you can visit today, and you don't need to die to go there. I left out the Greek form of the word to keep things simple, but I am aware that it figures in Greek and Hebrew. In either case, it's still a place in the real world. In my view, Jesus is telling His hearers that it is better to "enter life" or be born in the real world, than to live in such a way that you end up getting put to death and your dead body burned in the city dump instead of getting a decent burial. Better to pluck out an eye or chop off a hand than end up like that...

Yes, I do mix outside literature with the Bible. Why? Because "hell" the word and "hell" the concept both come from outside sources - we see it in "Beowulf" for instance - and I find that most of the support for "Hell" is fiction, most notably the epic poetry of Dante and Milton and the prose of Mary K Baxter. I have the Word of God, so why should I read them?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I see nothing in your reply that makes changing my position necessary. When John the Baptist promises a baptism with fire and I later read of cloven tongues of fire on the folks in the upper room, I can't help but make a connection.

"...false doctrine of men..."? You do realize that most pre-Christian pagan religions had some form of "hell"? The 1611 KJV had both "hell" and "hel." Well, "Beowulf" had them too, and it was just a pagan tale with a thin Christian veneer. The same words, in various forms, turn up in the old languages of pre-Christian Europe:

Old English – hel
Old Frisian – helle, hille
Old Saxon – hellja, hella
Middle Dutch – helle
Old High German – helle
Old Norse – hel, heljar
Gothic – halja
Original Teutonic - halja.

My position is simple: Great masses of converted pagans got baptized but retained most of their previous beliefs. It's just human nature.

a reply to: Lazarus Short
KJV
Mark 9:43-44
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus is telling His hearers that it is better to "enter life" or be born in the real world, than to live in such a way that you end up getting put to death and your dead body burned in the city dump instead of getting a decent burial. Better to pluck out an eye or chop off a hand than end up like that...

If your interpretation be true then please tell me what the following scripture of Isaiah is telling us. Is Isaiah also discussing ge- hinnom?

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Before you decide keep in mind that Isaiah is in the afterlife in this identical thought .

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Do you realize that they got it from God through oral tradition.

You think what you may. But remember

Roms 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou ((That is God)) mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohlʹ and its Greek equivalent haiʹdes, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek geʹen·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

originally posted by: DustybudzZ
...
As he said... the Bible just doesn't go into detail to explain exactly what "hell" will look like...

Except... weeping, gnashing of teeth,
no sleep & a firey furness / lake of fire...

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohlʹ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; haiʹdes is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; geʹen·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates haiʹdes as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from haiʹdes it uses that same translation for geʹen·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates haiʹdes six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates geʹen·na as “hell,” as it does haiʹdes in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

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Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, koʹla·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smouʹ] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression geʹen·nan tou py·rosʹ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

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