HTE for hydrogen internal combustion engines

I want to discuss using high temperature electrolysis for production of hydrogen for internal combustion engines.

There are several patents out there which claim to use hte for production of hydrogen gas that use hydrogen combustion engines or other heat sources to provide heat for the pressurized steam electrolytic chamber.

I will provide links with basic information on hte and the systems I would suggest employing to streamline the concept for use for fueling modern internal combustion engines.

Links:

1. Basic info on hte and thermolysis from wiki:
en.m.wikipedia.org...

2. Basic info on how the exhaust gas recirculation system works on a modern gasoline internal combustion engine:
en.m.wikipedia.org...

3. Basic information on catylitic converters for modern gasoline internal combustion engines:
www.aa1car.com...:~:text%3DThe%2520normal%2520operating%2520temperature%2520can,or%2520higher%252C%2520several%2520thing s%2520happen.&ved=2ahUKEwiG2OiuzKPtAhUPpp4KHRj5BOcQFjAGegQIARAE&usg=AOvVaw0itXg5CnoUIeGIh64u1dBl

4. Link to 2010 patent similar to the proposed system which I would like to discuss:
patentscope.wipo.int...

Overview:
The modern gasoline internal combustion engine can be modified quite simply for hydrogen combustion. The problem has always been fuel density and or the energy needed to produce enough hydrogen on demand using room temperature electrolysis.

The fact that modern internal combustion engines produce heat far more efficiently than they do locomotion is widely known and can be used to the advantage of a high temperature electrolysis process for on demand fuel production.

The question then becomes the best way to extract heat from your engine for the hte process of generating hydrogen.

My postulation is that the best location for your hte chamber is the catylitic converter and that the modern egr system most internal combustion engines use is a perfect candidate for recirculating the hydrogen laden steam back into the combustion chamber.

The system could incorporate a small hydroxy cylindar to fuel ignition and warming up the catylitic converter for hte to begin.

Hte is typically conducted at 100 to 850 degrees Celsius. Thermolysis happens at 2500 degrees Celsius. The normal operating temperature of a catylitic converter in a modern gasoline internal combustion engine for your car can range from 1,200 to 1,600 degrees F. That translates to an operational range of 648 - 871 c. At a back pressure range of 8 to 10 psi.

In internal combustion engines, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is a nitrogen oxide (NO
x) emissions reduction technique used in petrol/gasoline and diesel engines. EGR works by recirculating a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders. This dilutes the O2 in the incoming air stream and provides gases inert to combustion to act as absorbents of combustion heat to reduce peak in-cylinder temperatures.

This means the egr system is a great candidate for recirculating the hydrogen steam back into our combustion chamber from our HTE chamber/catylitic converter. It can handle the temps and is allready ported into the combustion chamber from the exhaust system.

Introduce cold air induction for mixing prior to condensing your oxygen rich exhaust steam back into water for your tank. A small cold electrolysis cell goes in the tank to refill your hydroxy tank for ignition and warm up.

Seems simple enough to me, but I'm no mechanical or electrical engineer let alone auto mechanic.

Please review the links I provided I havn't figured out posting pics to ats yet, and there are very helpful diagrams describing the basics of the systems proposed.

Definatly check out the diagram on that 2010 patent and the diagram describing hte on wiki.

There is also a pdf I didn't link to from the doe which describes using egr in hydrogen combustion engines to prevent premature ignition induced knock regardless of the hydrogen fuel source. Basically using the egr system on normal steam produced as exhaust in the hydrogen combustion process to octane the fresh hydrogen entering the combustion chamber preventing it from igniting prematurely due to hot spots in the combustion chamber combined with hydrogen's low ignition temp.

Just Google doe hydrogen combustion egr for knock prevention in hydrogen combustion engines I'm sure you will be linked to the over 600 page pdf from 2018 that contains the info.

This is not a closed loop system I'm proposing as you are still using the stock intake system and exhaust minus the addition of cold air induction to the exhaust for recirculation of water to the tank you are still exhausting any oxygen rich steam that failed to condense back into watter. This allows the system to maintain the propper back pressure required for normal opperation.

The computer controling the egr and fuel system would need to be reprogrammed, you would have to modify the catalytic converter with a pourous anode and cathode to turn it into your inline hte chamber, and introduce a cold air intake to the post catalytic converter exhaust then run it through a condenser in the fuel tank and exhaust any left over steam at a rate of 8-10psi to maintain propper back pressure.

The aluminum hydroxy tank and room temp electrolytic cell refuelling it can be stored in the fuel tank. If you want, you can use any excess heat and resulting hydrogen steam in the system after it is turned off to refill your hydroxy tank as well. You just need to add the return lines and a borax chamber to remove any excess moisture from the hydrogen steam prior to storage.


Honda has a ceramic engine that could handle the temps needed to allow for a purely thermolytic process of hydrogen generation, but as most engines are unable to handle the 2500 degree Celsius temps of the steam let alone operating with the back pressure needed to achieve such temps I have chosen not to discuss it as a potential candidate for hydrogen generation for use in a modern internal combustion system.


What say you ATS? Worth an explore or violation of the laws of physics and thermodynamics that would never work?

a reply to: Stevenmonet

Watch who you have dinner with at restaurants steve





To Upload pictures to this site go to the little downwards arrow up the top bar , the second one past myATS and up load to public , then to post use the one on the other bar that looks like a mountain with the dot

a reply to: Stevenmonet

a reply to: stonerwilliam

He used a cold/room temp electrolytic cell with a never disclosed chemical electrolyte to increase hydrogen production. He lost in court after investors said they were defrauded. The court stated as part of it's findings that there was nothing novel with his device.

After seeing African children run their gasoline generator by electrolysing their urine I suspect his system was similar.

www.zdnet.com...&ved=2ahUKEwjmh6n686PtAhUYGTQIHcgiCYEQFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3o5 NBWWmrRa4ZZF4sAd1jW&cf=1

The electrolyte he used was def. yellow in color too iirc.

Both are open loop systems that require refilling and involve a chemical catalyst in the form of electrolytes. Piss and suspected piss literally.

My proposed system is open looped, but self replenishing and uses simple water and a small aluminum hydroxy storage cylinder. I also propose high temperature electrolysis instead of room temperature by taking advantage of the heat in the catylitic converter to allow my system to provide on demand fuel.

By reprogramming/replacing the modern fuel management and egr system along with a modified catalytic converter, exhaust system and fuel tank my proposal could make conversion on most modern gas/diesel cars simple.

Sense it is simply a proposed idea and I have no investors or working model, I highly doubt I will be employing any food testers quite yet.

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Wow was just watching this video you shared again. I have seen it b4, but that nothing novel BS from the judge was just that.

As far as I remember this video was part of some local news segment from the 70's.

He just described an ecu controled fuel system with egr running on a lazer data link. He even pointed at the ECU in the dash and said we are going to miniaturize that into a couple chips. Ie a modern ECU that is in most vehicles. Minus optic data cables. Wow just wow.

My car doesnt use a lazer data link or optical drive and even my laptop is just an sd drive with an option for optics cable data link, but seeing that I dont have fiber optic internet I never use or even have a cable for that port.

In the first few minutes he described stuff that didn't exist on cars at that time. Forget hydrogen fuel even on demand hydrogen fuel from water for just one minute. Now throw gasoline in it and this guy was lightyears ahead of the tech of the time. How can any judge look at the evidence and say nothing novel is here?

The only thing that makes sense to me is the judge only looked at the prior existence of electrolytic cells for producing hydrogen from water both with and without chemical additives, and simply closed the book.

The fiber optic links to an ecu running fuel intake, ignition timing, and exhaust gas recirculation would have been novel enough without any promise of ECU miniaturization.

Judge was whack, or only took a very narrow view of the patent while ignoring entirely the completed prototype as a whole.

Other than that yep this is the one I remember funny how much time he spent on his anode's/cathode's design propriety while barely covering catalyst costs other than it's a common affordable proprietary chemical blend. I was right on the color too.

Guess if you say it's piss you have a harder time claiming propriety and selling it lol.

a reply to: Stevenmonet

It was a lot of years ago that i looked into this subject and with me having the early stages of dementia and Youtube etc deleting everything Another one was browns gas ! but all those people and their inventions died and got burned in Mysterious fires like happened to Tesla

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Generating brown's gas for combustion iirc is when you allow the products from the anode and cathode of cold/room temp electrolysis of water to mix back together prior to ignition.

If we did this using the hte method our product is high temp H2O steam and non combustible. Using the cold/room temp method of electrolysis produces oxygen and hydrogen gas not steam.

The difference being the energy available in the two different systems allowing the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine back into H2O in HTE vs staying separated and combustable with cold/room temp electrolysis.

I guess another way to look at it is the computer is regulating the intake, egr system and fuel system to combust browns gas in the combustion chamber in almost all hydrogen combustion engines regardless of the hydrogen fuel source.

"Once the egr kicks in to regulate knock caused by premature ignition of pure hydrogen as recomended by the doe that is."

Anyway alot of this is way over my head, but if any skilled minds would like to share their feedback I'm open to new ideas and feedback.

Just the basic idea of turning a run of the mill catalytic converter into an HTE chamber for use in hydrogen combustion engines with the simple addition of a pourous anode and cathode was some how missed aka non existent in all of Google.

The doe with their millions of dollars spent on arlternative energy research failed to think of it as a posible HTE chamber and on demand fuel source when working on recycling exhaust gas aka H2O steam in hydrogen combustion engines to prevent knock caused by premature ignition of hydrogen on hot spots of the cylinder walls. They were pulling hot steam off a catalytic converter and some how failed to notice a little kick from some E's could turn this steam back into hydrogen with very little energy expendature. After all the doe has the data for the solar based HTE energy generation systems currently in use, and published the numbers and tables for production at different energy inputs at the anode and temperatures of steam.

The worst part is the many HTE for generating hydrogen patents that use hydrogen combustion engines or other hydrogen combustion heat sources such as boilers to heat their HTE steam chambers. When not a one of them mentions using the catalytic converter on a car as the HTE chamber or even mentions using the ecu and egr systems that also allready exist right where you would need them.

No way in heck I'm the first guy that said hey add a pourous anode and cathode to the catalytic converter and reprogram the ecu and egr system. No friggen way. Yet here we are. ATS is at the bleeding edge of alternative energy systems. I should have known.

P.s. I'm now in the market for:

1.Financial backers
2. Mechanical engineer's with automotive backgrounds
3. Food testers.

In that order too! Please and thank you.

a reply to: Stevenmonet

Finally found a patent application describing the use of hte in a catalytic converter for on demand hydrogen production. They describe a single stage process like I reccomend as well as a 2 stage process.

For anyone who may find this topic interesting or may want to work towards a prototype.

www.freepatentsonline.com...