Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - Part Four

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posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Joedoaks,

Well how have you been? Great. I like how I take a few days toi slow down on here and you focus your efforts on someone else. Please, refrain from calling other people aside from me arrogant. Isis does not deserve your criticism. Isis is one of the most intellegent people I have ever observed on this forum. I on the other hand am an idiot. I still claim to know more than you, rightfully so. So, take out your misguided frustrations on me.

Also, I loved how you said that you found it amazing that people were able to discuss something when they didn't know too much about it. I didn't bother quoting you, but no matter. Whats amazing, is that you come in here every day and push an unlikely story on each of us. You know, that whole man rising from the dead thing....

Simon.

Are you really this dense? Are you as stupid as you continuously prove yourself to be? I am guessing at this point the answer to that question is yes. I take that back. You may just be a liar.

In your moronic little dissertation you just gave me, you mentioned that I was an athiest. I AM NOT AN ATHIEST. Though, I would have to argue that an athiest would have to be smarter than you. What you need to do, is read into my posts a little better. Just because I disagree with morons, doesnt mean I am an athiest. It just means I am smarter than a theist such as yourself.

Learn to read. They offer classes for that these days..even for adults. Then come back and read some of my posts. I am sure you will get a better handle on them. Heck, you may even at that point understand what the smart people are talking about when they refer to your bible.

Here, I will provide you a link to my beliefs. Something that I am sure you never took the time to read before because you probably can't. I wrote this several days ago.

www.belowtopsecret.com...




posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Herman
Seapeople, you never answered my question. Please answer it. Do you think that it's possibly for a God to exist?


Herman, yes, I have answered your question countless times, and several times in this thread.

Yes, I believe it is a possiblity for a god to exist with qulifications. It is possible for a creating force of the universe to exist. However, it is physically impossible for that creating force to have any bearing on our lives. Though, I have stated this so many times that I cant count, I will explain it to you further AGAIN if you want.


Could you please show me where you addressed TO ME your belief that a creator could exist? So even though this creator structured the universe we live in, you don't believe he could possibly interact with us? I mean, he MADE these laws, couldn't he break them?

By the way, one of the main concepts OF Christianity is that we have free-will.


Originally posted by Seapeople
Beyond all that, there is still a difference between you and I that clearly makes me a better person.


So you're a better person now? Wow, that's funny considering that you don't even know me, and that you've insulted me countless times in this thread, without me even reciprocating. I don't know why you continually throw these comments at me, it just makes your argument look even weaker.


You see, I admit in possibilities, very thought out ones at that. You do not admit in possibilities.


You don't even know me. Where did I say I won't admit to possibilities. Now you're just grasping.


It is likely that no creating force exists. You would never admit that because you are a coward. And if you did, your beliefs tell you that you would go to hell. Sheep....


It's possible that no creating force exists, but I believe one does. Hm, that wasn't so hard! Unlike you, I don't make blind assumptions.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Joedoaks,

Well how have you been? Great. I like how I take a few days toi slow down on here and you focus your efforts on someone else. Please, refrain from calling other people aside from me arrogant. Isis does not deserve your criticism. Isis is one of the most intellegent people I have ever observed on this forum. I on the other hand am an idiot. I still claim to know more than you, rightfully so. So, take out your misguided frustrations on me.

Also, I loved how you said that you found it amazing that people were able to discuss something when they didn't know too much about it. I didn't bother quoting you, but no matter. Whats amazing, is that you come in here every day and push an unlikely story on each of us. You know, that whole man rising from the dead thing....

Simon.

Are you really this dense? Are you as stupid as you continuously prove yourself to be? I am guessing at this point the answer to that question is yes. I take that back. You may just be a liar.

In your moronic little dissertation you just gave me, you mentioned that I was an athiest. I AM NOT AN ATHIEST. Though, I would have to argue that an athiest would have to be smarter than you. What you need to do, is read into my posts a little better. Just because I disagree with morons, doesnt mean I am an athiest. It just means I am smarter than a theist such as yourself.

Learn to read. They offer classes for that these days..even for adults. Then come back and read some of my posts. I am sure you will get a better handle on them. Heck, you may even at that point understand what the smart people are talking about when they refer to your bible.

Here, I will provide you a link to my beliefs. Something that I am sure you never took the time to read before because you probably can't. I wrote this several days ago.

www.belowtopsecret.com...





Like I give a flying **** what you believe... You're just exhibiting common atheist misconceptions so I assumed you were one. I'm not in the least bit interested in reading about you at all, don't flatter yourself. I'm not the one lacking logic, it's you - as you proved by citing a common flawed atheist/agnostic statement..



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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Herman, buddy, pal,

First off, it is not my fault that you are too lazy to do your research. That is probably the main reason you actually subscribe to the horrible mess that is your bible. Because you just are too lazy to look into it. So, in turn, I should expect that you are too lazy to read my entire posts. You would be too lazy to look back and read what I have told you. Likely, you have someone over your shoulder telling you what I wrote, because you simply can't read it.

I have stated many times that there could be a creator. It is not my fault that you ignore it. Well, can't read it. I am a better person than you for reasons such as this. And yes, I insult you. I insult anyone who tries to speak intelligently when they are clearly about as smart as, well I will get banned for saying that. So I will leave it be.

Just because I have no choice do to my intelligence to deny the existence of a creater, does not mean that my intelligence does not inevitably cause me to arrive at the true conclusions about issues like this.

Let me be more clear for the person who is reading this to you. I cannot say yes or no to their being a creator. However, I do have the ability to determine maximum capabilities of that creator. I also, must point out that a creator does not have to have any level of intelligence. It could be energy, and nothing else. Continuing. (Translator, please pat herman on the head and tell him it is ok)

You are a christian. Therefore, you refuse to accept rational thinking. You totally disregard nearly all science. For instance, you say that free will is a fundamental belief in christianity. Well, lets give herman an award (translator, ring a bell and give him a cookie please. Tell him that he did a good job) It is. Thats one of the reasons that you show smart people on a daily basis that you do not carry the ability to reason. You see, another one of your fundamental beliefs is that your god is omnipotent. (Translater, please take the time to explain to herman what that phrase means).

Now, being omnipotent, your god has infinite power. Included in that power, is the ability to know everything. Included in everything is your future. Lets pretend for a second that I am omnipotent. This would mean that I would know the outcome of your next unmade choice. So, lets pretend you are making that choice right now. I know what you will "choose" already. Ahead of time. So, even though you think you are choosing, in the end YOU MUST WITH NO MARGIN OF ERROR MAKE THE EXACT CHOICE THAT I KNOW YOU WILL. Thats just part of having an omnipotent god. The fact is, that you really have no choice, and hence no free will under those circumstances. Free will would only be an illusion to you. The fact that you will answer this as all christians do by just ignoring the obvious dillema here without even adressing it is what makes you foolish i this regard.

Your omnipotent got therefore created hell, knowing ahead of time who he would be sending there and the reasons he would do it. He created you, knowing exactly why you would go or not go there ahead of time. He, according to your FUNDAMENTAL beliefs, condemns certain people to hell before the universe was even created. Now, when we get to your NON-FUNDAMENTAL beliefs, thats where you try to circumvent these things. Only by sheer denial.

I believe that I have free will, as do you believe it about yourself. Therefore, your god CANNOT be omnipotent. Nor can he interfere with your life in any way. So, even though I may have no choice but to admit the possibility of a creater, I do know without a shadow of a doubt, that this creator, whatever it may be, cannot interfere with my life nor could it be omnipotent.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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Simon,

I made no such flawed statement. It isn't my fault you are foolish and you have no choice but to follow others who present themselves as smarter than you in life. I cannot help the lack of logic and reason that you were unfortuneatly born with or were just to lazy to correct. Please, do not be offended. It isn't me who did this to you. You are the one who was made a fool.

You stated something that wasn't true about me because you are too lazy to read posts in there entirety. When I pointed it out to you, you naturally were shown what you truly are. So of course you would be mad. Its ok now...count to ten. Relax...breath....... dont cry



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Simon,

I made no such flawed statement. It isn't my fault you are foolish and you have no choice but to follow others who present themselves as smarter than you in life. I cannot help the lack of logic and reason that you were unfortuneatly born with or were just to lazy to correct. Please, do not be offended. It isn't me who did this to you. You are the one who was made a fool.

You stated something that wasn't true about me because you are too lazy to read posts in there entirety. When I pointed it out to you, you naturally were shown what you truly are. So of course you would be mad. Its ok now...count to ten. Relax...breath....... dont cry


You made a flawed statement and I showed you why it was flawed yet you still maintain it's correct. Obviously someone with your intellect is unable to come to terms with the fact they are wrong.

Just because God knows our decisions ahead of time does not mean we have no free will. I knew the Americans were going to reelect George Bush, but ultimately it was their choice.. Does the fact I knew negate their choicemaking ability? No. A rational person will realise this, which is probably why you haven't.

God knows our decisions ahead of time because he exists at all points in time at once, so he has already seen our future decisions. This does not mean that he made our choices, there is no contradiction - you merely are unable to see past your own misguided 'logic..'



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Like I stated before, you are as I described and responded accordingly.

You see, you are fundamentally wrong in all of your beliefs. I kinda laugh when I see your words. To address your GWB response. I would first like to state some serious fundamental points. You may have felt that you knew the outcome of that election. But, it could have easily been different. You in reality, "thought" that it was likely. A probability that it would occur. Another issue that you failed to notice because of your severe lack of insight, is that you knew this to be a probability for a reason. The reason was that most people were open about choices they had already made. If you had absolutely no idea about the choices of the people that had already been made, then you would have had NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to make the assumption (and it was only an assumption) that gwb would win.

You can predict a likelyhood, but by no means can you predict with 100% certainty a choice made by a living human.

The second and last point that you made. You said, god exists at all times simultaneously. (Please note the word "exists") Lets get this clear for everyone to see. You say that we have free will, but yet you are stupid enough to then say that god exists at all times at once. You know what your idiotic assumption means? It means that YOUR FUTURE CHOICES ALSO EXIST. There cannot be another way if you believe the way you do. Not only do your choices already exist by your OWN WORDS, but the feeling of actually making a choice, is a feeling already existing right now, just not experienced by you.

To be precise, you stated that your choices DO already exist. Which, leaves no room for debate (even though you are foolish enough to try). This means, everything, every feeling, every movement, and every decision in your life has been prescripted as far as you are concerned. The feelings that you have when posed with a decision...already existed before you got to that point. You are just experienceing a path of destiny which was already written at the moment of creation. You, by your own admission, have no free will.

So, when you are sitting there thinking about what to write in response, just remember your response in its exact form already existed before you even were born. You just follow the path. No choices exist to you.

It is amazing....



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:56 PM
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I was going to recite a few quotes from vacuous laden emanations posted above, but decided that that would be a waste of band-width and provably fall upon deaf eyes, as it were. After some juvenile pretensions as an economic laureate Seapeoples was requested to enroll in a communications (reading comprehension) class in another ATS thread. Not only is it painfully obvious that the sage advice went unanswered it is apparent that the unrestrained and constant rantings of superiority must indeed be the result of perhaps repressed bestiality tendencies.

Sad to find people in such need of help wallowing blissfully in the throws of denial. Low esteem is so harmful.

The aforementioned course is less than $20 (postage paid). I have no doubts with proper supplication his mom would gladly provide this as she has everything else in his youthful, and by his own words, hollow existence.

I've heard it said that empty vessels can be filled. That would be a wonder.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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Did you just accuse me of participating in bestiality?

You know, that is far lower than anything I have ever said.

I could go on to describe christians such as yourself as Nazi's. I mean, you guys were worse. The nazis killed several million jews. While your church has murdered many more than that over a 2000 year time period.

I wont go any further than that, though I could. Joe, it is not my fault that you, among others are deprived by what you believe to be your god in the brain department. I am sure rational people would say it resulted from more realistic things, like eating lead paint chips as a child, falling off of a roof onto your head, you know what I mean. You all, especially you, make arguments and stupid assumptions with no basis in reality, science, math, OR EVEN YOUR OWN OBSERVATIONS. You are so afraid of the reality that is death, that you cannot even admit as to when you are making assumptions.

Belief, faith? you don't even know what those terms really mean. You may believe in a god as foolish as it may be. You may have faith in that god as foolish as it may be, however, that god will never be a reality, or an absolute truth until the day you die. That day however, doesn't even guarantee that absolute truth. Thats the fear you have. You try to cover it up with false fears of immorality based on a book. You hide it with fearing an imagined hell.

You are so afraid of it that you denounce progress and science. Just as in the days before, where people were murdered by the millions when they decided the church had some things wrong in it....like extorion and such. They were murdered by the millions for beliefs in the simple things like....a heliocentric universe. You are just as detrimental to society as were those who preceded you on the path of nonsense.

Trust me when I tell you that I have no issues in the department of reading. And for crying out loud, get an original gig. I told you guys to get reading lessons. You copied me. How gay is that? Whats wrong with you? I swear, the more you speak, the worse off you are.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Like I stated before, you are as I described and responded accordingly.

You see, you are fundamentally wrong in all of your beliefs. I kinda laugh when I see your words. To address your GWB response. I would first like to state some serious fundamental points. You may have felt that you knew the outcome of that election. But, it could have easily been different. You in reality, "thought" that it was likely. A probability that it would occur. Another issue that you failed to notice because of your severe lack of insight, is that you knew this to be a probability for a reason. The reason was that most people were open about choices they had already made. If you had absolutely no idea about the choices of the people that had already been made, then you would have had NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to make the assumption (and it was only an assumption) that gwb would win.

You can predict a likelyhood, but by no means can you predict with 100% certainty a choice made by a living human.

The second and last point that you made. You said, god exists at all times simultaneously. (Please note the word "exists") Lets get this clear for everyone to see. You say that we have free will, but yet you are stupid enough to then say that god exists at all times at once. You know what your idiotic assumption means? It means that YOUR FUTURE CHOICES ALSO EXIST. There cannot be another way if you believe the way you do. Not only do your choices already exist by your OWN WORDS, but the feeling of actually making a choice, is a feeling already existing right now, just not experienced by you.

To be precise, you stated that your choices DO already exist. Which, leaves no room for debate (even though you are foolish enough to try). This means, everything, every feeling, every movement, and every decision in your life has been prescripted as far as you are concerned. The feelings that you have when posed with a decision...already existed before you got to that point. You are just experienceing a path of destiny which was already written at the moment of creation. You, by your own admission, have no free will.

So, when you are sitting there thinking about what to write in response, just remember your response in its exact form already existed before you even were born. You just follow the path. No choices exist to you.

It is amazing....


No, once again you speak without thinking. We cannot jump forward in time, only God can. Just because God can exist at a time where our choices have already been made does not mean that we have already made our choices, it means that God has already seen our choices. Derren Brown can predict people's responses with 100% accuracy, but he does not create the responses, he merely reads them.

And no I can't predict with 100% certainty what's going to happen, but I'm not God now, am I?



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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I was just going to ask you if you were omnipotent as well, since you are so good at predictions and all.

I guess talking to a wall is futile. So I should probably stop making that wall look dumb. But I just can't.

Honestly, do you believe that god even exists simon? Honestly.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople

Well I was joking- (they don't call you 'dog boy' do they?) j/k

Get a life- chill a little- lighten up

Look, life is what it is. You seem relatively smart. Why come on here (ATS) and beat on people's beliefs? It makes no sense at all.

You and Isis need to look at your selves in the mirror and step back.

Treat people the way you want to be treated. Believe in God if you want- if you don't that's your choice.

Why beat on others for their beliefs?

You have no earthly idea how intensely cruel some of the posters you two keep pi$$ing on could be if they wanted to. This should not affect you though.

The being 'well with yourself' is what IT is all about- isn't it?



[edit on 24-3-2005 by JoeDoaks]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Just as an example (poor one to be sure), people that rant about say Panda Bears. I have to ask myself how many of these people have tried to comprehend the intricacies of Pandas much less the environment that they (the Panda) abide.

This would be like me (as for instance) trying to have a discourse with an aknowledged master of all things mathematics such as your self (for instance). That would make me pretty foolish, would you agree?

[edit on 24-3-2005 by JoeDoaks]

Woah. Did I just tick you off Joe? You retort to your verbosity(ignorantly might I add) and still remain closed minded.
Pandas! Love them buggers. Cute! You're camparing your God to pandas? If not, you're apparently not so articulate as I hoped you would be.
Yes Master of freakin all things mathematics. You do have the tendency of exaggerating dont ya? That explains the delusional perspective in life you seem to be so addicted to. "Arrogance" my friend is not something you truely understand do ya? Maybe you should pull out that word from the same dictionary that you look up your other words in.



Like I give a flying **** what you believe... You're just exhibiting common atheist misconceptions so I assumed you were one. I'm not in the least bit interested in reading about you at all, don't flatter yourself. I'm not the one lacking logic, it's you - as you proved by citing a common flawed atheist/agnostic statement..

Joe, If you dont give a flying fudge about what other people have to say then you shouldnt be in a "forum". That explains your behavior of ignoring the answers to the questions you asked, and then re-asking them again. And again. Hey I should become a psychologist. Hey, master of math, something to do with panda bears and a psychologist. Heck my resume kicks butt.
Dude, Im just a normal person alright so stop making your baseless pointifications towards me. Shouldnt you be actually following what jesus said? To not judge? I know I follow some of what he says yet I'm an atheist. That tells you a lot about how christianity has evolved my friend.



Not only is it painfully obvious that the sage advice went unanswered it is apparent that the unrestrained and constant rantings of superiority must indeed be the result of perhaps repressed bestiality tendencies.

BESTIALITY??? Shouldnt the mods be warning you for such a foul mouth? How the heck did you come up with that? Wow no really, this is amazing. Do you have like a list of labeling categories that you use for people who give you a logical point of view? Hmm...lets see, you...
1. Argue about stuff that might bother you and wait for a reply
2. Ignore the reply and re-state the baseless statments
3. Ignore more replies and have a fit, and start mentioning panda bears
4. Use the suggestions of others and be un-creative and throw it back on them. Another word you must relate to:"regurgitate"
5. Use foul words and show what a good christian you are.
6. If 1-5 backfires, claim to be joking. Also, accuse people of being arrogant, etc etc( The stuff on your list)
My! Listen Joe, I hate to insult anyone, let alone say anything bad. I hate to argue w/o a point. If you want to involve yourself in an intellectual discussion you need to have a little alone time and fix some problems. You can thank me later.

P.S. Panda bears are cute.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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Seapeople,
First off, thank you for your kind words. How can an idiot explain QM to me? Durh!

You actually did explain the concept of free will pretty neatly! Ok lets see now....

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
We cannot jump forward in time, only God can.

Why do you bind god with YOUR definition of time? Its a no-no my friend. You're looking at time as linear. Anywho, I digress...



Just because God can exist at a time where our choices have already been made does not mean that we have already made our choices, it means that God has already seen our choices.

Here's the thing Simon, IF your god is omnipotent and all that good stuff, he surely knows your future. He knows your whole life top to bottom. He knows your future like you said. God has SEEN your choices and you havent, agreed. So in your own little mind you're thinking you're making free choices. That flawed logic only works when you're not aware of the concept of a god knowing everything you understand? The moment you KNOW that a god exists that knows everything, you automatically know that free will is an ILLUSION. Just cuz you dont knwo whats in your future doenst mean you have free will. God already had decided. And YOU know he has decided(not the same as you knowing WHAT he has decided). Put those two together and voila! You aint got free will.
Eeesh that was a mouthful!


Derren Brown can predict people's responses with 100% accuracy, but he does not create the responses, he merely reads them.

Derren Brown does not predict people's responses with 100% accuracy.
What he does is to introduce factors that HAS to lead you to his desired outcome. An analogy comes to mind. Imagine you take a mouse and have 10 doors that he can get out of. You introduce, one by one, a blockage of 9 doors. He knows that the mouse now can only get out thru the door he wants it to get out of. This experiment only fails if the mouse doesnt want to get out. So its not the same as PREDICTING you see? Anyone's input on this?



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Wait,

Did a christian introduce derren brown into this conversation? What in gods name would you bring up him for? You opened yourself up to a whole new can of worms with that.

That is one of the most dumbfounding things I have ever seen. Why in the world would you purposely remind me of derren brown in a conversation where you are defending religion. That man on numerous occasions has shown christians to be fools.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Did a christian introduce derren brown into this conversation?

Umm...Thats what shocked me a bit. I dont know if simon has watched some of Derren brown's shows. I was surprised that his name was brought up in reverance than the usual "heathen" "pagan" stuff.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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Isis suggested a new thread some time back.

Thinking about it I decided she/it might just be right so I created one based on the supposition that she/it and Seapeoples just might be pushing a religious agenda of their own.

ATS thread in conspiracies in religion

I'll be 'hanging there for any that care-
Come on over, everyone is welcome




posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Now, being omnipotent, your god has infinite power. Included in that power, is the ability to know everything. Included in everything is your future. Lets pretend for a second that I am omnipotent. This would mean that I would know the outcome of your next unmade choice. So, lets pretend you are making that choice right now. I know what you will "choose" already.


The problem with this argument is that it assumes a linear mono-world existance. It then assumes the omnipotent to be constrained by this assumption.

I would suggest anyone wishing to disprove an omnipotent God using this argument to study many worlds quantum theory.

Each quantum event, say firing of neutrons in the brain, creates a parallel world in which the event which occured one way occurs in another way. In essence, all possible outcomes for an event do occur.

An omnipotent being knows the outcomes in the world in which I had a bagel for breakfast this morning, as well as the outcomes in the world in which I had scrambled eggs and even outcome in the world in which I decided to have fruit loops. But ultimately, the choice of what I had for breakfast this morning was mine.


Concerning rocks.

If God were to create a rock that filled all of the universe He could not move it; there is literally no place which it could be moved. If you then asked God to move this rock He could not move, He could. He would simply increase the size of the universe and move the rock. When you then complained that the rock was no longer so big it could not be moved, He would then remind you that it was when He made it.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by I_s_i_s
babloyi, in order to educate a 10 yr old in QM one has to explain it in kiddy terms. My point was that you cannot explain it to a child in an adult way.

But then the child won't have understood it properly. You explain Quantam Mechanics to a child using analogies of tennis balls and vacuum cleaners, and the child may very well understand the basic concept, but tennis balls and vacuum cleaners will still be in the child's mind.


Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Well, so, God had to follow the rules of humans when he's interacting with us. If he doesnt we wont either see it or know that interaction ever happened. What God does outside of our influence is not important. If he's all powerful he could be out there blowing up suns or creating suns or whatever he chooses to do to defy physics. Not here.

Why not? Like I keep saying, and omnipotent God can very well defy physics everywhere. Do you think our world would just "blow up" if a small instance of physics is not followed? Besides, the very point of "miracles" is that they defy physics.


Originally posted by I_s_i_s
There are countless "sightings" of God being down here in the religious texts. So now that we established he was infact down here( according to the texts ofcourse) he chooses not to do it from up there or wherever.
He needs a form, a voice, a face( in some cases), a certain image. These things only make sense to a human. So he DOES play by our rules. He has no choice does he? If he didnt, people wouldnt know what he wants them to do next right?

You are trying to disprove God by disproving christianity. I care nothing about these "texts". But that is besides the point. I am sure that an omnipotent God can take form of a "body" to communicate. But that would not mean that that body is God. What, while God is in that body does that mean that at that instant there is no God anywhere else? I think not. I am sure God can also send visions, voices, and even free-willed humans under divine direction to say what is to be said. Who knows? With all these religions around, I am sure it has been done before. But none of this means that laws of physics cannot be broken. A sourceless voice will not destroy physics. An entire new body inserted into this universe will not destroy physics. Once it's work is done, it can be removed from the universe as well.


[edit on 25-3-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 05:24 AM
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Trust me rapheal,

I may not be an expert in the field, but I am aware of precisely the issues that you are bringing up when you refer to quantum mechanics. However, you are failing to mention, that though dualities are represented in quantum mechanics, that is only for statistical purposes.

Quantum mechanics has much base in statistical probability. In no way does it refute anything that I have said. There are issues that have yet to be explained in QM. I won't try discussing them on a religon forum because god knows he didn't make the base of these people smart enough to understand algebra, let alone concepts of statistics, probability, calculous, ect.

To address your point. Part, if not the whole of your argument was that an omnipotent being would not be bound to our laws. Our laws of science. Now, I STRONGLY disagree with you when it comes to this. I do not believe by any means that a god could circumvent basic math. I will leave that alone however.

You see, even if an omnipotent god was not bound by our laws, WE ARE. We can experience nothing that stands outside those laws either partly, or fully. In no way would we as humans be able to experience an omnipotent god. In no way would that same omnipotent god be able to interact with our environment in a observable way. And, since you seem to be educated, you may be able to understand the point we are trying to make in this thread. You may be christians, and therefore refuse to accept it, but I believe that unlike the majority of people attacking this idea, you are actually smart enough to understand.

If an omnipotent god exists at all times which would be a requirement. If that god knows everything while existing at all times, that lease only one possible scenerio with no margin of error. That means that everything he knows about us already exists. If it already exists, it may not be observable to us due to our non-omnipotent status. We may not be able to interact with the omnipotence of this. However it still must mean that our choices, feelings, and actions are prescripted as far as we are concerned. They are done already. They are made. We just have to move through that path of time yet.

That being said, there is no room for having free will. Our life is built. We just experience the created version of mindlessness as if we actually do think. In reality though, it was your supposed creator that did all the thinnking, all the choosing. He just enabled you to experience it for him.

I would never, in a million years subscribe to a belief system that eliminates free will. And, in addition to that, I am too smart to simply overlook it as christians do. I have free will. Therefore your god does not exist, at least how you say he does.

Just as a side note, even if I am wrong, and your god does exist how you say he does, I am still not in a position to make that decision. I cannot make any decisions. My words and actions would have been made and done at the instant of all creation. So, I therefore can do no wrong. Murderers are not sinners. Rape is just the flow. (Please note again...THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS LUDICOUSY) That is the consequences of your beliefs. Denying it only shows your fear to accept reality.





 
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