Originally posted by 00PS
Should the Confederate States of the USA be allowed to be independant after they lost a civil war? No!

00PS speaks the truth... What do you think the US would do if all of a sudden Hawaii wanted independance?

Well Hawaii was never in a civil war were they?

That's the point. JKS was the leader of a political party that had a civil war with the leader of another political party and lost. Just because he survived and fled to an Island doesn't mean that Island should be a new country in the world?

Especially Annex an existing part of another country, the winner of the civil war.

The point isn't they want independance.

The point is they were never engaged in a civil war and lost

and have no right to claim independance.

Originally posted by 00PS
The point isn't they want independance.

The point is they were never engaged in a civil war and lost

and have no right to claim independance.

Absolutely, but the point i guess i was making is that China or anyone else for that matter, never encourage or support dissident groups in other countries.

The U.S government has pretty much seen fit to support every dissident group from non-allied countries.

Originally posted by rapier28
The U.S government has pretty much seen fit to support every dissident group from non-allied countries.

You could say that again, how else do you think the US has managed to accumulate as much power as it has...

Originally posted by rapier28
There are elements of Hawaii that want independence. This is never reported because the rest of the world doesn't inflame the situation.

This is just a quick search on google.

Can we please see links of the protests of the masses of people in Hawaii that want this independence?....

What is the percentage of people that want this?



[edit on 25-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Can we please see links of the protests of the masses of people in Hawaii that want this independence?....

What is the percentage of people that want this?
[edit on 25-3-2005 by Muaddib]

I have no idea, my sources were from a quick search on google, i know next to nothing about that situation apart from the fact that it exists.

However, i'am certain that a high percentage of ethnic hawaiians want some form of autonomy, i've heard speeches by the Governor of Hawaii etc mentioning things about "Hawaiian self determination".

This is from Hawaii-nation.org, see link in my post above.

"The cause of Hawaii and independence is larger and dearer than the life of any man connected with it. Love of country is deep-seated in the breast of every Hawaiian, whatever his station."
- Lili`uokalani, Hawaii's last Queen

"This is a historical issue, based on a relationship between an independent government and the United States of America, and what has happened since and the steps that we need to take to make things right."
- Republican Governor Linda Lingle, January 2003

"The recovery of Hawaiian self-determination is not only an issue for Hawaii, but for America. ... let all of us, Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian, work toward a common goal. Let us resolve ... to advance a plan for Hawaiian sovereignty."
- Democratic Governor Ben Cayetano
1998 State of the State Address

I'am guessing that they are alot of Hawaiians that want independence else the politicians won't pander to that group. After all, they still politicians.

-----

BTW, i'am not saying that Taiwan is Hawaii. Taiwan is very different to Hawaii, Taiwan is the remnant of a civil war. Taiwan would be like the confederates retreating to like Florida. (Florida was a confederate state right?)

[edit on 25-3-2005 by rapier28]

Its not that different at all. It represents a disintergration of a nations borders. America wont accept Hawaii's departure from the United States. For the very same reasons that China wont allow Taiwans.

The Chinese should play a gamble and say that they'll allow a Taiwanese referendum if Americans allow a Hawaiian referendum If the countries both vote for independance then both countries should allow them that.

Also wheres the logic in people saying that independance can only come from (Civil) war? Theres plenty of examples of non-violent independance struggles.

Originally posted by subz
Its not that different at all. It represents a disintergration of a nations borders. America wont accept Hawaii's departure from the United States. For the very same reasons that China wont allow Taiwans.

The Chinese should play a gamble and say that they'll allow a Taiwanese referendum if Americans allow a Hawaiian referendum If the countries both vote for independance then both countries should allow them that.

Also wheres the logic in people saying that independance can only come from (Civil) war? Theres plenty of examples of non-violent independance struggles.

You miss the point. Hawaii never had a civil war with the USA. Their quest for independance is very different from Taiwan.

Taiwan is the loser of an armed conflict. They have no right to annex partitions of the nation.

America has over the years led Americans to believe that Taiwan is a bastion of freedom and needs to be liberated from the evil restraints of the mainland. This is propaganda.

There is as much crime and corruption in the Taiwan government as PRC

Let's stick to the point. The loser of a conflict has not land rights.

Putin IS a former head of the KGB...............they are in the economic toilet...........
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ok, once again another thread that turns from the original point of the post...

Anyways, i have seen on tv some Hawaiians talk about self determination too, but there are several differences from Hawaii and Taiwan.

First, I haven't seen on tv or anywhere else the massive protests from Hawaiians wanting to be independent, nor have they ever fought for this independence. The annexation of Hawaii to the United States was done without any bloodshed as the queen of Hawaii willingly gave power to the Unites States.

Second of all, that I know of Hawaii has never actually declared independence from the United States, or was it given independence by the United States.

In this issue i am not going to assume that most Hawaiian's want this independence since there is no proof of this being presented, even though some representatives think otherwise according to the links given.

What is happening in Taiwan is completly different...

The history of Taiwan is long and it is a history of a country that has always been fighting agaisnt one form of oppression or another, there is a common saying there that goes, "a small rebellion every year, and a big rebellion every 5 years."

This is a small summary of the history of Taiwan and their struggle for independence.

The Taiwanese people fought against the Chinese before they were communists. They fought against the Japanese even with the help of the then Qin administration (chinese administration that was not yet communist) even though the Qin administration had their own reasons for doing this. Then after WWII and as agreed to the Cairo Declaration, Taiwan was given back to Nationalist China. (not communist China as we know it today)

When the Communists in China took control over the mainland, the government of Chiang fled to Taiwan, this is a time that it is known as "the Two Chinas" period. Where the government of the Republic of China in Taiwan (Nationalists) and the People's Republic of China (Communists) both claimed to have sovereignty over China. But the only government in control over the island until recently was the Republic of China in Taiwan.

Until 1972, when the United Nations, and the other world bodies recognized that the only true Chinese government was the People's Republic of China. (Communists)

Thus why we have in this day and age that most of the people in Taiwan want independence, but the people in China still think that Taiwan is part of the mainland.

---edited for errors---


[edit on 26-3-2005 by Muaddib]

I put forward the Hawaii notion as a hypothetical Muaddib. I used it to try and engage a discussion as to how America would react to a threat to its border integrity. Would it do as China has done and fight it? Or would they allow them to tear away?

The civil war point is irrelevant. If a peoples wants independance thats all thats needed. East Timor wasnt a civil war, they were invaded by Indonesial. Ukraine and the former Soviet states didnt engage in any war for their independance. War is not a necessary precursor to independance.

Originally posted by subz
................
The civil war point is irrelevant. If a peoples wants independance thats all thats needed. East Timor wasnt a civil war, they were invaded by Indonesial. Ukraine and the former Soviet states didnt engage in any war for their independance. War is not a necessary precursor to independance.

There is always a group of people in pretty much every country that want some sort of independence....always....whether or not they are truly being oppressed, as in the case of the Basque people in Spain. They have their own government, yet they are still part of Spain and this is why they want total independence. Some within the Basque people want this independence badly and are using terrorism as a form of protest. This terrorist group is known as ETA.

The problem is that in the case of Hawaii, unless you can prove it differently, i haven't seen masses of people wanting this independence, it seems to be that only some want to be independent. Not only that, but what is happening in Hawaii has no real relevance nor are there any similarities to what is happening in Taiwan.



[edit on 27-3-2005 by Muaddib]