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Help me convince a relative that her insane idea is wrong.

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posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 01:48 AM
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I recently had a long and frustrating conversation with a left-leaning relative. This person is not an extreme leftist and is willing to concede to logic most of the time. But I was floored the other day by her assertion that "just as much violence has come from the right this year as from the left." That is, she thinks all the looting, burning, shattering of windows, toppling of historic statues, etc. this summer was "equally the fault of the right and left."

I was left speechless because it seems to me self-evident that the violence and vandalism this year came almost entirely from Antifa and other extreme leftists.

I don't even know how to go about proving this because it's like being asked to prove the sky is blue.

I asked her to give me an example of right-wing violence on the same scale as the looting this summer in major cities and she mumbled something like, "I saw them standing around in their MAGA caps like thugs...they were there..."

I tried to explain there is a difference between "standing around" and "violent looting and destruction of property" but she just couldn't admit it. I then pointed out the vast numbers of Antifa protesters versus the tiny, usually well-behaved MAGA-capped group but she wouldn't listen.

I am at a loss. Other than saying "open your eyes" can anyone think of a way to debunk this? Is there a comprehensive list of leftist acts of disorder this year somewhere versus acts perpetrated by rightists?




posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:03 AM
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She sees it the way she wants to see it. You cant force someone to listen to logic, when they don't want to. Maybe you shouldn't bother with politics when around her.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:05 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

Like you say, your rele is willing to concede to logic. Maybe instead of questioning this you should look into it yourself and see if your stance is wrong. The violence hasn't always come from one side. The MAGA hats don't always stand back and they are usually shouting vile abuse at whatever protests they claim to be watching over.

Left and Right in America are two sides of the same corrupt coin.

Same with voter fraud claims. They're only being thrown one way but the fraud (because every election around the world has election fraud, just on a sliding scale) will be going both ways. But most are too blinded by their bipartisan politics they refuse to see the corruption on their side.
edit on 17/11/20 by djz3ro because: I wrote friend originally



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:23 AM
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a reply to: AnonymousNutjob

I am not willing to give up on her yet because she is the last leftist who is sekf-reflective enough to listen and admit when she is wrong.

If her ideas are becoming more extreme this last window of personal cross-isle cordiality and mutual respect may be closing like all the other leftists I can't talk to freely anymore...sad...


+3 more 
posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:28 AM
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a reply to: djz3ro

The violence doesn't ALWAYS come from one side but it seems pretty self-evident that the looting, burning, grafitti, campus rioting, throwing bricks through windows in Manhattan, killing police, desecrating art and sculpture like Cultural Revolutionary Maoists, even attempts at creating a "new country" in the pacific Northwest this summer...all large groups of Antifa and BLM protesters rather than MAGA hatters.

If somebody can prove me wrong I'm all ears.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:29 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

If you watched CNN you see just as many examples of the violence on the right. Both sides regularly have people that display the worst of us all.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:32 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

Sounds like a maturity problem.

Over the weekend myself and my mate (semi-conservative, anti-'progressive') had a great conversation with another mate who's an avowed liberal.

He's not extreme. We covered many topics from; the election, climate change, politics in general, capitalism and more.

We all learned something from eachother prompting further investigation and discovery of information.

We all shook hands enthusiastically upon parting agreeing it's the best conversation we've particiapted in a long time....and we disagreed on a lot.

Mature adults can discuss these things and check their own beliefs.

Perhaps the manner in which you deliver your opinion is condescending or aggressive?



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:32 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

You could point out that the media has declared Biden the winner, falsely.

And whether she agrees with that or not, wouldn't this be the time when right wingers would be rioting?

If they felt their election was criminally stolen?

.....yet not a single riot. No looting. No fires. No broken windows. No vandalism.

That's the difference. And watch what the left will display if Trump ends up victorious here.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:33 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

What I really need is some kind of tabulated list with actual numbers for incidents involving each side, rather than anecdotal evidence. I will keep looking I guess.

I admit there was violence from the right but I still hold there was an order of magnitude of greater more from the left. The endless boarded-up plywood-fortified shopping districts in cities all over the nation were not a reaction to "conservative violence".



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:34 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

Start from her source. Where is her ideology coming from? Maybe someone is brainwashing her.
edit on 17-11-2020 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:39 AM
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Better leave Left-Right politics out of the family imo, such discussions often end badly and you´ll have to interactive with them at family events for years to come.

-MM



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: IAMALLYETALLIAM

Sounds like a maturity problem.

Over the weekend myself and my mate (semi-conservative, anti-'progressive') had a great conversation with another mate who's an avowed liberal.

He's not extreme. We covered many topics from; the election, climate change, politics in general, capitalism and more.

We all learned something from eachother prompting further investigation and discovery of information.

We all shook hands enthusiastically upon parting agreeing it's the best conversation we've particiapted in a long time....and we disagreed on a lot.

Mature adults can discuss these things and check their own beliefs.

Perhaps the manner in which you deliver your opinion is condescending or aggressive?


This is the way it should be done, here on ATS as well as in person.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:08 AM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Never Despise

If you watched CNN you see just as many examples of the violence on the right. Both sides regularly have people that display the worst of us all.


First your starting out with a clearly BIAS (and thats putting it mildly ) source CNN .
they seldom show ALL of the incidences and almost never the full video of the violence of the left.
they MAYBE show a one for one if ever.
hell even the example you used at least two one can CLEARLY SEE provocation if not laying of hands on the "right" protestors before they used force.
on one they only show (which they may be in the wrong) the "right" hitting and kicking the man . not what lead up to it.
same situation but more missing when the guy hit the person filming him.
in most (but not all) situations when THE WHOLE EVENT is shown the person being "attacked by the right" WAS JUSTIFIED.

so your own example (as typical lately from the left/ left supporting) does not help your case. In fact quite hurts it.
that is saying something given how clearly edited this was.

Not only that, but i defy you to show how there is "equal" numbers of violence (or even close) on "both sides"

funny how a google search your hard pressed to find a ratio of right vs left violence of 1 to 25 (thats being quite low).

I defy you to show any case of "the right" rioting, looting stores , firebombing police and police stations, attacking cops, blocking traffic on major roads, tearing down historical statues, or blindsiding anyone wearing a biden hat.

lastly and most ironically is the continued use of "proud boys" as a racist extreme right wing group.

you do know the founder is BLACK in a mixed race relationship right?

be the only "racist group" that has a black man as a leader.

scrounger



edit on 17-11-2020 by scrounger because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:10 AM
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the title of your thread calls this relative's ideas "insane" and you need help to "show her reason", these points make it seem like any sort of conversation could not be considered a balanced one.
You seem very set that your ideas are right,
maybe as set as she is on hers?
how would you feel if she was posting on some twin ats right now about her insane relative who needs help to see reason?

couple thoughts for you, see how they vibe;
you're very quick to cast "all the looting etc" on The Left, but what we were actually seeing there was an upswelling of people - not of specific ideologies - sick of decades, generations of mistreatment at the hands of BOTH wings of the mainstream political body.
Perhaps what she was trying to express is that people are being used and divided by partisan politics and led into violence both physical and rhetorical by this mindset that My Team Is Always Right And Your Team Is Always Wrong.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:10 AM
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originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation
Better leave Left-Right politics out of the family imo, such discussions often end badly and you´ll have to interactive with them at family events for years to come.

-MM


yes true

but a funny upside is by doing so say at thanksgiving you save a load of money on needing to get christmas presents.

scrounger



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:15 AM
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originally posted by: Trueman
a reply to: Never Despise

Start from her source. Where is her ideology coming from? Maybe someone is brainwashing her.


It isn't easy for logical thinking people to be brainwashed. I never used to be a logical thinker but events in my personal life forced that change. I used to be the kind of fella who fell down conspiracy rabbit holes and would find it easy to believe all kinds of nonsense. Those days are gone though.

I think there's a less one sided discussion the OP should be having with the relative in question. Maybe take a leaf out of IAMALLYETALLIAM's book...


originally posted by: IAMALLYETALLIAM
We covered many topics from; the election, climate change, politics in general, capitalism and more.

We all learned something from eachother prompting further investigation and discovery of information.


We all shook hands enthusiastically upon parting agreeing it's the best conversation we've particiapted in a long time....and we disagreed on a lot.


You will probably both come back with a better understanding of where you are both coming from and maybe even bring you guys even closer.

This idea you have to convince them they're wrong is not healthy.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:20 AM
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a reply to: IAMALLYETALLIAM

I've been able to talk to this person with mutual respect and maturity about politics for my whole adult life. I try not to be condescending or immature to anyone. I know a lot of leftists from growing up when the political divide was not so extreme, and my family is mixed left-right. Over the last 10 years or so I have learned to avoid discussing politics at all with most left-leaning people in "real life" and we base our friendship on other factors.

I consider this person the last leftist with whom I can speak openly about politics in a cordial and mutually respectful way. I think it would be sad to lose that, and I don't think I will over this issue, but this issue just leaves me gobsmacked because the preponderance of evidence seems to be so strong that I don't even know how to mount a logical refutation without drawing up some list of the hundreds of examples of leftist violence this year versus the handful of examples from the right.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:33 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

This is good to hear. The thing is, you've admitted to being in a bit of an echo chamber


Never Despise
I consider this person the last leftist with whom I can speak openly about politics in a cordial and mutually respectful way.


As such you are always going to hear more about the bad Lefties. I've been caught in this in the past too, I used to be guilty of confirmation bias, as someone who is a Leftie (my political leaning, in American terms is Centre Left or maybe a small step to the Left more than that but quite Liberal in UK terms, I have never been triggered, felt the need to Reee or scream at the sky, well there have been some drunk nights camping or doing Medieval events but never anything to do with politics, just drunken banter. I'm no snowflake either).

In the time since my personal life has forced me to dissect information in a logical and critical manner I've learned, when reading something from a biased source (of which there are many) to find what a source that leans a different way says, sometimes this means reading the same article from 4 or 5 different viewpoints to reveal the nugget of truth within.



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:36 AM
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originally posted by: continuousThunder
the title of your thread calls this relative's ideas "insane" and you need help to "show her reason", these points make it seem like any sort of conversation could not be considered a balanced one.

im sorry but you dont have a "balanced" point if the persons point is clearly wrong. its like saying you are to treat someones "point" that the sky is not blue but purple has merit. if an idea, point or view is clearly "insane" than calling it as is , is quite accurate.

You seem very set that your ideas are right,

i see you missed the point that he WAS TRYING to give facts to back it up and they were having none of it.. projecting much

maybe as set as she is on hers?

being "set" does not mean your right unless you can back it up with facts.. then its not "being set" but accepting facts/truth

how would you feel if she was posting on some twin ats right now about her insane relative who needs help to see reason?

if she is posting WITH FACTS then they be right. but if they are posting rantings, emotion, and other fact lacking things. then they be renforcing his point that they are "insane" or wrong.. doing the work for him as it were.

couple thoughts for you, see how they vibe;
you're very quick to cast "all the looting etc" on The Left,

but that is quite ACCURATE and factual.. i defy you to provide PROOF of a "right wing" looting, rioting, burning down a store, attempting to burn police or police stations, ect.

but what we were actually seeing there was an upswelling of people - not of specific ideologies

ARE YOU SERIOUS ? I guess all the chanting "bleep the police", signs of BLM and antifa (or antifa slogans) , leftist symbols, ect are not "specific" ? really if this is what your claiming you clearly are not in land of reality, much less think people cannot disprove what your saying with a simple google search.

- sick of decades, generations of mistreatment at the hands of BOTH wings of the mainstream political body.

again SERIOUSLY? Show me where any of these "protests" aka looting and rioting, BLM or antifa are blaming the democrats. hell i cant find any of those groups making this claim in any searches i found...

Perhaps what she was trying to express is that people are being used and divided by partisan politics and led into violence both physical and rhetorical by this mindset that My Team Is Always Right And Your Team Is Always Wrong.


im sorry but your last statement is continuing that "both sides are wrong / equal in facts" when clearly they are not.

let me sum up with this statement from the talk show host wilkow (probably misspelled it)

"there are two sides to every story, but only ONE TRUTH"

Scrounger



posted on Nov, 17 2020 @ 03:39 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise

It's time to take your blinkers off and look at the complete picture.




White supremacists and other rightwing extremists have been responsible for 67% of domestic terror attacks and plots so far this year, with at least half of that violence targeting protesters, according to a new analysis from a centrist thinktank


www.theguardian.com...

edit on 17-11-2020 by alldaylong because: (no reason given)



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