Mental Illness, UFOlogy and New Science

a reply to: Direne

No that doesn't seem right. Maybe the problem is we have different definitions of mentally ill?

Like fe: A delusion is commonly defined as an unrelenting sense of certainty maintained despite strong contradictory evidence.

That's not how "nature" works. That's not a "law of life".

a reply to: Peeple

Yes, I am sure we do have a different definition of mentally ill . I have no definition at all, but that's because I have no definition for mind . We know little about the mind, if anything, so it is very difficult for me to go futher and understand what is a not working mind, or a mind working suboptimally, or simply an ill mind. But I confer without agreeing on a working definition our conversation could not progress. I will acceept your own definition, for the time being.

Now, tell me Peeple, how does Nature work? What does Nature teach us about overpopulation, regardless whether the population is good or evil? Facing the dark demise of an overpopulated planet with increasingly depleted resources, what would creative people do? Moving on to other planets to just repeat the endless cycle? And what for? To just be creative again? My point is we do not know how Nature work. We do know how humans work, though. And it would be better for them stop working, judging from the results of their being creative .

And I am sure Dunning and Kruger will be happy with my acceptance of ignorance about Nature.

I agree with the 'useful mental illness' idea. A musician friend once told me that "happy, sane people don't create things".

a reply to: ColeYounger

While mostly true, I'd argue the members of Rush, one of the worlds biggest rock bands in recent decades, were some of the most stable guys ever in that satanic industry.

Just sayin'.

It's a special kind of crazy, I call it. I know it, I have it. I'm a drummer/pseudo musician. We're like serial killers, we can exist, almost, in the real world but yet have to do this "THING" that most others just can't do. Without the killing bit, that is.

It's funny, music is just vibrational math. Which is another thread and has been done, just look up the A432 thread. Applying it, having the skill to do it, is another thread also. With drumming, one has to use all four limbs separate from each other. Gotta think there are weird things a going on in a mind that can process that and the body that can relate that.

It's also why I can get away with being a dickhead. I'm an artist, dontcha know?

a reply to: Direne

Those are trick questions, right?
The only possible answer is: don't know

Especially since I don't know your definition of nature? Or mind. Or what the # we're talking about if you make statements like

we must accept Nature is mentally ill.

while you don't have a definition of anything?

a reply to: Peeple

Fair. We both have passed the Dunning-Kruger test, with honours. I am sure David and Justin will be happy with both of us, because we both have agreed we know nothing about what we are talking about. (though I wonder if David and Justin do know what they were talking about...).

As for my sentence, you are right. I will change it to this one: Nature must accept we are mentally ill.
Now everyhing is okay.

a reply to: Direne

I'm pretty sure nature doesn't have a mind. And even if it wouldn't care. So you'll have to explain what you mean with "Nature must accept we are mentally ill" because to me it makes zero sense.

And I can define the words I use with no claim of being true but enough for the sake of discussing and thinking, you can't.

a reply to: Peeple

Peeple, you cannot be pretty sure about nature not having a mind because we have agreed on previously that according to the Dunning-Kruger effect, that would mean you have experiencing right now an illusory superiority which, according to both Dunning and Kruger, comes from your inability to recognize your lack of ability.

You can define the words you use, indeed, but if that definition is not accepted by the other partner, communication is impossible. This is something I admittedly can't and won't do at all, particularly if I wish to communicate with someone.

Peeple, face it: we are all mentally ill here.

****

But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.

"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."

"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.

"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”

― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

a reply to: Direne

I have said multiple times before this thread in other discussions humans are bat#crazy.
I have given you a definition of what I mean with that.
I can give you a definition of Nature: the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth
Which is collectively agreed upon. Not even my own words.

You are what makes "communication impossible" because to communicate we use "symbols"(words) which are basically just meaningless random letters if you refuse to define them.

So again I'm a bit flabbergasted what the hell you are talking about?

a reply to: Peeple

It's probably my fault, don't worry. I am very bad at definitions, words, languages, and communication in general. A flaw, a shortcoming. I will improve with time.

a reply to: Direne

Peeple, face it: we are all mentally ill here.

Ok? Then, what does mental illness means at this point? If everyone is mentally ill, the state becomes the norm.

For there to be incapacity, there ought to be capacity. In other words, for mental illness to have any meaning, you must compare it with other minds with similar conditions, such as individuals within human species. Then you can categorize capacities within human mind's abilities so that you can extract an average from generality for each capacity. Finally, you can compare each individual with the average to get a result, which will be;
-in the mean (your capacity doesn't stand out from the generality of the species)
-below the mean (you have underperformance in the capacity of interest)
-above the mean (you outperform the generality when being compared)

That has been extensively done, hence why we consider the concept. It doesn't help to just throw the label at everything and then call it a day. If so, just say mind=mental illness.

Let's take nature as an example; if you want to define nature, you have to impose limits to the concept. You can't just go and call everything in the universe part of nature, it's basically saying nature=universe, thus rendering useless the conceptualization of the word and its definition; just use universe.

a reply to: IgnorantGod

Sorry, I don't understand you. I'm sure this is because you are mentally sane. It looks as if you can wave a magic wand and define a concept perfectly limited, without any possibility of misinterpretation. That would be certainly a deed, a miracle. It is as if your understanding of what is Nature, or Mind, or Justice is crystal clear to all of the 7.5 billion people in this planet. No room for misinterpretation.

However, if that were the case, then you need to explain why people make evil things to others. Is it that they do not understand the perfectly limited concept of Justice ? Or is it because they are inherently evil, no matter how much you polish and re-polish, and rinse the concept of Justice ?

You can't just go and call everything in the universe part of nature

Oh, I can! Believe me. Look, pay attention: everything in the universe is part of nature .

See, I've done it. Again.

a reply to: Direne

everything in the universe is part of nature

Then, as I've said, your definition of nature would equals to your definition of universe, hence are the same. That's why I then question the purpose of defining nature in the first place, if its basically the universe?

I'm sure this is because you are mentally sane.

I personally disagree with you on this.

It looks as if you can wave a magic wand and define a concept perfectly limited, without any possibility of misinterpretation.

No, we use consensus and convention to agree with a definition that the majority will accept within their communications.
I didn't mean to imply that nature is out of all doubt this or that. Rather, I tried to explain the necessity of a concept to have differenciation from other concepts already established amongst us, so that there is no useless ambiguity amongst them.

Of course there's misinterpretation within our communications, or definitions. And I don't claim to not have misinterpretations myself, I'm full of it; personal bias from self-paradigm (my own little world/fantasies). I try to seperate them from what I would define as objective facts (such as mathematics or logos).

a reply to: Peeple

Nice!

It's true, that shared insanity, as in religion, had
survival value, or it wouldn't be with us to this
day, be so strong.

It no longer has survival value, however. When one
insane person can end the world, we have to get
rid of our shared insanities.

yes --- "I don't know" & "we don't know" is a perfectly
splendid response.

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

Oh one more comment..

it's possible to come to a point, where it's
more comfortable not to know.. to end
all the madness.

But then one might not be of much use to
anyone..

I'ts called "enlightenment syndrome".
It's a very known thing in parts of the
'spiritual community'.

If 'enlightenment' is simply stopping
all the delusion inside of yourself,

then the major motivation to live, that
humans have .. being insane, and proving
your insanity is better than other people's
insanity is gone..

what does one do then?

That's a fascinating question.

Links between mental illness and creativity are a subset of the mystery of the Brain. Recall the famous 1988 movie "Rain Man" where Dustin Hoffman portrayed a mentally-challenged man who has instant recall and is a mental calculator with the ability to instantly count hundreds of objects at once. I since learned of a real-life person who not only could read and remember the serial numbers of train freight containers as they passed by but also could simultaneously add them up. And of course there are many stories of people who have photographic memories.

The most mysterious man in Mathematics (and perhaps all of Science) was Srinivasa Ramanujan (www.stealthskater.com... ) into whose head would suddenly appear (as if by magic and without any proof) new theorems of great complexity. His ca. 1918 modular functions are still used today in superstring theory and the study of blackholes. Nikola Tesla (www.stealthskater.com... ) would be a close second in that he claimed he could "see" an intricate invention in his mind before he began to sketch it out on paper.

Remote mental actions such as remote-viewing/healing/influencing, ESP, Out-of-Body and Near-Death Experiences (www.stealthskater.com... ) have been long researched. They have been notoriously difficult to duplicate. Some have suggested that the experiencers are viewing parallel worlds (or mathematically, possible quantum histories). I sometimes wonder if there is some "entity" in another dimension that chooses when to allow an experiencer to complete a task. That would explain a lot.

Normally it takes some sort of head trauma to induce remote-viewing. Intelligence agencies around the World have experimented with drugs to see if R-V capabilities could be created in existing agents (www.stealthskater.com... ).

Christianity is not the only religion that had miracle workers (e.g., disciples) who could heal. Somehow these abilities have seemed to have eroded over 2,000-or-so years. This may be due to DNA evolutionary mutation.

Dr. Matti Pitkanen's TGD-physics (an improvement over John Archibald Wheeler's GD) unites not only General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics but also Consciousness under one robust mathematical umbrella (www.stealthskater.com... ). He postulates that dark-energy photons are responsible for extraordinary mental actions.

Then it gets complicated with Minkowski and Hilbert spaces and Past/Future lightcones. Déjà vu may include Future lives as well as Past ones. "Schrodinger's cat" showed that something could be alive or dead at the quantum level until its state is "measured" (i.e., decohered). TGD allows for parallel lives simultaneously in the Past/Present/Future.

While conceding that the Universe undoubtedly holds other planets with intelligent life, most physicists doubt that any have ever visited Earth (e.g., UFOs). However, they are very recipient to the idea of time-travel as there is no law in Physics that prohibits a reversed arrow-of-time (which Pitkanen's TGD exploits).

The majority of UFO sightings occurred shortly after the first atomic weapon tests (ca. 1947) and ended with the worldwide moratorium (ca. 1980) on further tests. Sometimes UFOs have been seen above nuclear power plants (see item 'H' on www.stealthskater.com... ). This to me would imply some correlation. Are we endangering aliens? Are "they" trying to save us? Are these tests destabilizing the Earth's rotation or magnetic fields? Are we opening up wormholes? Are there biological plasmoids (www.stealthskater.com... ) that are being created or affected by these tests? Or could these be affecting established "time lines" (e.g., Montauk Project => www.stealthskater.com... ).

It seems (to me) that the secrets of the UFO phenomena are controlled by those who are not necessarily politicians or military. USAF Chief-of-Staff General Curtis LeMay achieved notoriety by angrily telling his friend Senator Barry Goldwater that (1) LeMay himself could not get access to a secret hangar on Wright-Patterson AFB and (2) he would court-martial Goldwater from his USAFS Major-General position if he ever asked again (www.stealthskater.com... ).

DOE sites like Hanover and Oak Ridge used to be involved in atomic energy-related research. But now there is much medical (non-atomic) top-secret studies taking place. Why there and not somewhere like the CDC?

I don't think the admission of alien visitation would cause major panic a la Orson Well's broadcast. We've been too "conditioned" by now. So why do some allegedly "in-the-know" still maintain that the General Public could not handle the truth? If it's not aliens, what is it? Are we living in an irreversible time loop where the Future has already been fixed (and therefore no 'Judgment Day') ?

a reply to: Peeple

the mistaken concept of 'soul' as promoted by
Christianity, and other monotheistic religions
is what destroyed us. All the deviations
trace back to that one single pebble
before it began to cascade.

That's the 'real memo' Mr Cauliflower.

I love fools; they are simply the best.

a reply to: Direne

Insane, out of control replicators.

a reply to: Direne

Lovely, lovely discussion. I'm positively trilling and bouncing
around on my tippy toes.

Since my first words, (around the age of 5) I wanted to be
part of conversations like this.. or at least to watch my
betters have such conversations.

Have you personally ever solved "the problem of evil"? You
can't understand "Gnosticism" until you do.

Kev

a reply to: IgnorantGod

(my own little world/fantasies)... I try to seperate them from what I would define as objective facts.

Oh! I am definitely interested in how to achieve a pristine divine divide between fantasies and objective facts; in particular, I am extremely interested in how to be able to separate dreams from non-dreams. Could you please elaborate on how to achieve this differentiation, please?

a reply to: Stealthskater

why do some allegedly "in-the-know" still maintain that the General Public could not handle the truth?

Because maybe they discovered the aliens are mentally ill. Imagine you find that a superior civilization capable of crossing the galaxy from one end to the other, consists of insane people... I mean... I for one couldn't handle the truth.

a reply to: Peeple

If we don't know..

which we don't.

Even when we do.. say quantum theory.. it's
proven out to a million decimal places...
but it's missing somthing huge.. so we actually
don't know ANYTHING. Up. Down. Sun. Alive,
not Alive (sorry Descartes).

So what do we do?

We either unty all our knots, and become a mushroom,
or we introduce some insanity back into the system
and process it. We process 'other peeples insanity'.

That's how it works.

Most call it Karma, but it's really insanity.

If you study the Nine Ox Herder Pictures..

the seeker climbs the mountain top.

He realizes that he is all... he achieves it all..

then he climbs back down the mountain.

He chops wood and carries water.

He accepts that delusion and insanity are the
only coin of the realm..

as when both are gone, the entire Universe is gone,

though it comes back, to become insane again.

We are creatures of the middle..

not dumb as rocks, not infinite in usable mind.

Either we trudge along and do our best

or we give up.

In many ways humanity has given up.

My thoughts.

Kev