Judge Alito: ‘Religious Liberty Is in Danger of Becoming a Second-Class Right’

a reply to: Freeborn

This is part of the conflict in the great capitalism/socialism debate too.

Under the idea of capitalism, it isn't the people are inherently good. Far from it, all a free market is supposed to do is ensure the maximum amount of choice. That means that Frank selling his widgets is a cheat weasel, then maybe one or two or more of the other guys selling widgets aren't, and I have the option of buying their widgets instead of being forced to deal with Frank the cheat weasel.

Under a system like socialism, we all make the widgets, use the widgets and Frank the cheat weasel has to be dealt with and cannot be escaped, so his corruption will negatively impact everyone all up and down the chain. There are no alternatives that allow us to cut Frank the cheat weasel out of the system.

As per faith is concerned, human corruption is the rusty vessel. You cannot pour the pure water of faith into the rusty vessel and blame faith when it comes out tainted. That's a paraphrase of something Francis Collins said.

a reply to: ketsuko

Not sure I agree with your capitalism/socialism analogy but I do get your point.

A debate for another time and place I think.

But we do agree that its human beings and our flaws and failings that lie at the core of most systems failures.

I like the Francis Collins quote.
I'd never heard of him before and had a read of his Wiki page.
He seems like quite a remarkable man and though I instantly disagreed with his views on Agnostics I think I'll have a bit more in depth look at the man, his work and his beliefs.

a reply to: Freeborn

It's from his book The Language of God, but as I said, it's a paraphrase not the direct quote. It was his answer to people getting upset when a religious person lets them down. He said he realized it's not necessarily fair to blame the faith for what a corrupt person my have done with it. That paraphrase was his rationale for why.

a reply to: ketsuko

Religious or not, all people let us down at some point.....its just a question of how often and how badly.

I'll add it to my list of books to read when things get a bit calmer for me.

....it's not necessarily fair to blame the faith for what a corrupt person my have done with it.

Very true.....unless of course the dogma and teachings themselves are hate driven.

We could talk for hours about whether its the religion itself or 'man's' corruption of that faith that breeds hate and intolerance but again, for me it would have to be another time and place.
But at the end of the day we have to acknowledge that all religions are by and large constructs of the human mind.....or at least their respective dogma and creeds are.

The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you
Not in a mansion of wood and stone
Split a piece of wood and I am there
Lift a stone and you will find me

- Gospel of Thomas

If going to a church is your only way to connect with God then you aren't truly following His teachings. Many Christians I know do not see the inability to go to church as an impairment to their ability to practice their faith for the faith lives in their spirits, in their hearts, and in their minds.

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Human beings are social creatures. I remarked in another thread how very destructive this COVID situation has been to my son.

He desperately misses his entire family. He hasn't seen his cousins since last year. Every holiday that comes up, he starts to get excited and antsy and starts talking about his cousins, his great aunt, his grandmother and grandfather. And every time, we start downplaying expectations and it ends in tears for him when he finally internalized that he won't see them because of COVID.

The latest was last night when he finally accepted there would be no Thanksgiving, not like normal years. Now he's already starting to panic over Christmas.

My point in relating that? Humans need each other, need the group. That's what church is about as much as school, sports, and other social events that we are being openly prevented from engaging in, but even worse, church is part of our spiritual existence and ties in to some of the deepest social rituals: birth, death, marriage, etc.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: chr0naut

By applying the law equally and fairly.

Thats litterally the only way, any other way leads to distrust unrest and appeareance of favoritism.

So, should, for instance, religious organizations be tax exempt? Surely that is not treating them with equality under the law. And considering the number of very large businesses that purport to be 'religious organizations', shouldn't something be done about that?

And what of those Fortune 500 companies that, because they can pay some smart accountants and lawyers (that everyone else can't afford), pay almost no tax on their incredible profitability. Surely that's not equality under the law?
And what of the inequality of medical and health services where the cost of fairly mundane stuff gets inflated by 1,000%, surely that isn't equality under the law?

I am all for capitalism, but there also can be limits.

Americans can't seem to get equal application of law when money comes into it.

That's literally the definition of the law. Tax code was written, it's law. And if CPA'a and smart accountants can find ways to use the law to the advantage of their clients, it's exactly what they are paid to do and what the law allows.

Your grasp on America is weak. Perhaps you should stick to Kiwi garbage.

I never said that tax code wasn't law.

I was referring to equality under the law. Suggesting that the laws of the land do not apply equally to all citizens.

But go on demonstrating your exceptional "grasp" on things.