What I think the Masons part plays in the NWO . . .

Originally posted by Researcher
Hey! I have an idea! Let's read the actual words of real Freemasons, get it straight from the horses... um, anatomy.

Illuminati and Freemasonry.

J.D. Buck; The Genius of Freemasonry; Page 36:
If the sincere and thoughtful Mason would "take notice" of the symbolism and the use made everywhere in the Lodge of the word "Light", and remember that the real Initiates are called also "the Illuminati", (Sons of Light), those who are illumined, and who in turn illuminate.

Manly P. Hall; Lectures On Ancient Philosophy; Page 409:
...its purpose is to impress upon the reader's mind the philosophical and political situation in Europe at the time of the inception of the Masonic order. A philosophic clan, as it were, which had moved across the face of Europe under such names as the "Illuminati" and the "Rosicrucians," had undermined in a subtle manner the entire structure of regal and sacerdotal
supremacy.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Pages 20-21:
Little as it may be realised by the unthinking Mason who is interested only in the outer aspects of the Craft work, the whole fabric of Masonry may be regarded as an externalisation of that inner spiritual group whose members, down the ages, have been the Custodians of the Plan, and as Those to Whom has been committed the working out of the will of God for the race of men.
They can be known ... as the Masters of the Wisdom for They are skilled in the divine ways and have mastered the arts and sciences which Their fellowmen have yet to master. They are the Dispensers of Light and to Them has been given, by virtue of Their achievement, the privilege and the authority to pronounce the great Masonic formula: 'Let there be light' and to evoke the response: 'And there was LIGHT'.
They are therefore sometimes known as the Illuminati and can direct the searchlight of truth wherever its beams are needed to guide the pilgrim on his way.

Tell you what. I'll let the Freemasons foam at the mouth over this a bit. Then I will post the quotes where Freemasons say all religions are derived from, and a subset of, Freemasonry. So it all doesn't end up in one big mind-boggling ball of text that no one will read.

[edit on 29-3-2005 by Researcher]

I do not now have time to read the above quotes, but I'm sure that you, being an intelligent poster with a name like "Researcher", understand that no one person or group speaks for Freemasonry, right? And I'm sure you're aware that every mason interprets Freemasonry in his own way, correct?

You know, that argument might stand if these books had been written by non-Masons, such as myself.

Then you could say it is ony an individual interpretation of the teachings.

But no, they are written by educated Masons, who care enough to dedicate their thoughts to paper, and have them printed and recommended by Fellow Masons. Hell, if Freemasons didn't buy these books, who would?

Hence, they have a duty to deliver a COMMON interpretation of teachings, more likely than not, the interpretation that was taught to them, although again, you will puppet, that they were not TAUGHT how to interpret them. Well then I say, what is so unique about Masonic secrets if not the way in which you are taught, therefore in the way your thinking is affected by the teachings.

And of course, the way the teachings are related is the key, the key to CORRECT interpretation.

Originally posted by akilles
You know, that argument might stand if these books had been written by non-Masons, such as myself.

Then you could say it is ony an individual interpretation of the teachings.

But no, they are written by educated Masons, who care enough to dedicate their thoughts to paper, and have them printed and recommended by Fellow Masons. Hell, if Freemasons didn't buy these books, who would?

Hence, they have a duty to deliver a COMMON interpretation of teachings, more likely than not, the interpretation that was taught to them, although again, you will puppet, that they were not TAUGHT how to interpret them. Well then I say, what is so unique about Masonic secrets if not the way in which you are taught, therefore in the way your thinking is affected by the teachings.

And of course, the way the teachings are related is the key, the key to CORRECT interpretation.

But there is no correct interpretation, and that is said directly in one of the charges of the three Blud Lodge degrees. A mason is charged with finding his own interpretation, said literally in ritual. So, I'm sorry, but it is true when I say that no one person or group speaks for masonry. To one mason, Freemasonry may be a way to learn how to be a better Christian, to another maybe the lessons only teach honesty. A mason takes what he wants out of the organization, pure and simple.

You can read MANY educated masons' books about the fraternity, and each one will tell you something different about it. Does that mean that they are all wrong, except for one? No. They are all right, and they are all wrong. They do no have a duty to deliver a common interpretation because there is no such thing, and they don't. It's all about perspective, and who's interpreting it. Any mason will tell you the same thing.

There are quite a few non-Masons who in their research have studied the Masons, I know, I'm one of them. At The University Of Wisconsin-Milwaukee we have a brilliant philosophy department and anthropology department that tackle all manor of academic topics regarding this sort of thing. The Masons are much as their members have said here, a fraternal order that uses metaphorical rituals during initiations and has members adhere to a moral/ethical code and profess belief in a generalized higher power that is not overly tied to one religious movement.

In fact, in many of the lodges I have talked to people about, it is forbidden to discuss religion and politics within the lodge.

Yes, they were influential on the American and French revolutions, but it has been explained to me that the true influence came from their then-radical ideas now known as a democratic voting system and egalitarian unity.

Also the "over Mason" governing body really doesn't exist, in the United States there are Masonic masters in every state, and often many more than that. In the rest of the world, the masters in London are the governing body but schisms have taken place and break off lodges (called irregular lodges) exist around the world.

One of the remarkable things about Masonic teaching is that the symbolism used (and damn is there a lot of it) is generally open to interpretation by individual members. This makes Masonry very versatile and it can be easily adopted in a myriad of cultures because of this fact. In my view, it's probably the main reason why it's so widespread.

Also, the "all seeing eye" on the back of the US dollar bill and on the reverse of the US seal is not a distinctly Masonic symbol. It is actually a graphic that was popular in the 1700s as a decorative and belonged to a stylistic family called "Orientism." The US and Masons both adopted the graphic in short chronological proximity to each other, because it was fashionable and looked really cool. In fact the seal did not appear on the dollar until 1937 (remember that for most of the time before that the dollar had been a coin) and when the seal was designed in 1776 the only Mason on the design board left in disgust after the first (and first rejected) draft. He was Ben Franklin, America's favorite colonial playboy and he left the design board because of their refusal to use the turkey instead of the eagle as the animal.

All and all, in today's world in America, the Masons are much like the Rotary Club but with a more interesting set of rituals and a cooler logo.


May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

Check it yo.

President Madison, confirmed Mason. Married into the Todd family. Todd related to the Collins family. You know, Joan Collins.

President Lincoln, not confirmed Mason by any means. Never joined but 'held a deep respect' (aka "followed orders"). Married to a, ummm, hmmm, well let me just double check here. Yup, he married into the Todd/Collins bloodline as well.

Hmm, quite the way to control these men, by the balls so to speak? But if they looked like Joan Collins, AND were rich, is it still questionable? I think so

Considering that many traditions speak of the Female bloodline having the power, maybe this is something that should be looked at? Maybe, for example, Hillary Clinton?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
sebatwerk you seem to get quite frustrated by akilles, how do you know what you are talking about??? Where do you get all your info??

I get very frustrated by Akilles because he spread slander and lies, despite being given correct information time and time again. I am a Freemason, and I get my information from my own personal experience, as well as the personal experiences of my brothers.

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
Sebatwerk ok I can believe it is a fraternity BUT one controversial question?

If these "people of power" are just in a frat. then why do they also belong to other frats???

Like Bohemium club, Skull and bones, builderbergs etc, etc. Before you start blowing your horn ALL of these so called "Frats." exist.

Are the Bilderbergers a fraternity? How about the bohemian club? I do not believe they are, but rather just organizational events. Skull and Bones is nothing more than a debate society, not very impressive.

And there are no links between masonry and all those other organizations. So what do they have anything to do with this thread?


[edit on 29-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

They have nothing to do with the thread I am sorry I went a bit off subject.

I apologize for saying that The builderberg group is a frat. I know it's not. Just a club where all the people of from Paper companies to again politicians so why would they want to such secretive meetings and YES the media is blacked out COMPLETELY does this not show that these people have power.

I know your going to say these people have meetings to talk about business and it's so secretive because they don't want the media messing with 'em every 5 mins. This is not right. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW what these powerful people are saying behind closed doors. Which is also the same for "other" secret societies.

Masons do have a sort of link to these other organizations as I have heard (I'm not stating it's true) the Templar knights created the masons which I
know it sounds far fetched but this is a theory site.

STOP being biased saying mason's are good happy people and start looking higher up the ladder. For instance are you not in different levels of masonry and are you not told about the next step until your there.

hey i looked up orientism on google. I got only 4 pages worth of hits and most of it had to do with programing language. online encyclopedias were not helpful either.

what sites or books did you use in your research.

masons function as a group has a collateral effect for research / idealism / psuedo religious / scholarly evidence for a unilateral church of all religions. not trying to be positive or negative here. In a way, they are the clergy, as evident by their cheif opposition , also being another order/type of clergy. It doesnt really matter who started it either. (btw the catholic church has a history of appeasement/incorporation of paganism, so i guess you guys are sort of similar in a way).

secrets dont matter, only public opinion matters. secrets are only for changing public opinion before they can be targeted.

isnt it confusing when one symbol has so many individually made up interpretations? im sure you lot park some lines here and there...

Originally posted by NuTroll
hey i looked up orientism on google. I got only 4 pages worth of hits and most of it had to do with programing language. online encyclopedias were not helpful either.

what sites or books did you use in your research.

masons function as a group has a collateral effect for research / idealism / psuedo religious / scholarly evidence for a unilateral church of all religions. not trying to be positive or negative here. In a way, they are the clergy, as evident by their cheif opposition , also being another order/type of clergy. It doesnt really matter who started it either. (btw the catholic church has a history of appeasement/incorporation of paganism, so i guess you guys are sort of similar in a way).

secrets dont matter, only public opinion matters. secrets are only for changing public opinion before they can be targeted.

isnt it confusing when one symbol has so many individually made up interpretations? im sure you lot park some lines here and there...

My god, listen to yourself you used google and thats it. I tell you what I give you one link to a rogue journalist website then you may find many, many links to websites some of the information may not be completley true but I'm sure if you done lots of reseach to many hundred websites you WILL find information that can be very disturbing but then if you choose not to believe it then you do not need to worry.

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

What the hell are you looking up orientism for. You may as well be searching occultism.

Actually look up a ancient "body" called moloch/moleck. You may be supprised what you find.

[edit on 30/3/05 by Hunting Veritas]

i also looked it up in a few other sources, incluing online and offline encyclopedias. but thank you for completly missing the point of why i posted the results of my inquiry on google, obfuscating the other points of my post, and leaving yourself open for further attacks on your positions credibility: because your losing the argument of public opinion.

Originally posted by NuTroll
i also looked it up in a few other sources, incluing online and offline encyclopedias. but thank you for completly missing the point of why i posted the results of my inquiry on google, obfuscating the other points of my post, and leaving yourself open for further attacks on your positions credibility: because your losing the argument of public opinion.

Losing the argument of public opinion??? I couldn't care less what you think! SIMPLE but I do take into consideration the facts you present to me and from what I have read, masons are good minded people and I do not deny this. I have done much reseach but not much away from the biased internet pages in which stories and such will be manipulated in one way or another but NOT all of it is fake and made up there is some truth in the smoke but you must find it.

Now I have noticed you have been a member for quite some time and I have only been a member for month or so but you see I have only just started my journey of truth and am still only a novice in these subjects but I am VERY willing to learn more!!!

Symbols have defined and original meanings.

Originally posted by akilles
You know, that argument might stand if these books had been written by non-Masons, such as myself.

Manly Hall's book WAS written by a non-Mason. It's been said here many times, Hall wrote when he was younger...and didn't join the Masonic Order until he was much older. SO....everything he wrote about Masonry in those early days WAS written by a non-Mason.

...and like Sebatwerk said, no one person speaks for Masonry. Even the oft-misquoted Pike said in the introduction to "Morals & Dogma" that anyone was free to disagree with anything in the book that he found to be untrue or unsound....yet folks like you want to take it word for word, misconstrue it and use it to continue your lies about Masonry.

Come clean Akilles. WHY do you HATE Freemasonry so much? Why are you so scared of it? Why do you continue to spread lies? What has Freemasonry EVER done to you? I'd REALLY like to know...and I think several others on this forum would too.

Originally posted by Akilles

President Madison, confirmed Mason. Married into the Todd family. Todd related to the Collins family. You know, Joan Collins.

President Lincoln, not confirmed Mason by any means. Never joined but 'held a deep respect' (aka "followed orders"). Married to a, ummm, hmmm, well let me just double check here. Yup, he married into the Todd/Collins bloodline as well.

Hmm, quite the way to control these men, by the balls so to speak? But if they looked like Joan Collins, AND were rich, is it still questionable? I think so

Considering that many traditions speak of the Female bloodline having the power, maybe this is something that should be looked at? Maybe, for example, Hillary Clinton?

What does ANY of this have to do with this thread?

Originally posted by senrak
Come clean Akilles. WHY do you HATE Freemasonry so much? Why are you so scared of it? Why do you continue to spread lies? What has Freemasonry EVER done to you? I'd REALLY like to know...and I think several others on this forum would too.

I second that question. Akilles, I also would like to know why you continuously slander masonry every opportunity that you get? Why are you so biased?


[edit on 30-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
I know your going to say these people have meetings to talk about business and it's so secretive because they don't want the media messing with 'em every 5 mins. This is not right. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW what these powerful people are saying behind closed doors. Which is also the same for "other" secret societies.

What gives you this so-called RIGHT to know what PRIVATE GROUPS are talking about inn PRIVATE MEETINGS!?!?!? It is THEIR private business, and you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to demand that they telll you what they are meeting about!

Masons do have a sort of link to these other organizations as I have heard (I'm not stating it's true) the Templar knights created the masons which I
know it sounds far fetched but this is a theory site.

Masonry has NEVER been proven to have ANY links to either any government-like or think-tank organization, OR the templars or any other secret society. Maybe some masons were/ are members of other societies, but there is no official link between masonry as an organization and any other.

STOP being biased saying mason's are good happy people and start looking higher up the ladder. For instance are you not in different levels of masonry and are you not told about the next step until your there.

There is no ladder to look up!! You NEED to understand this. There is NO SUCH THING as a "high-ranking" mason! The only thing that degrees are good for, past the 3rd degree, are for knowledge of rituals and symbolism! They are APPENDANT DEGREES!

There is no connection between higher degrees and power in the fraternity. As a 3rd degree master mason, I could EASILY be voted as master of a lodge, and have authority over any 33rd degree mason in my jurisdiction. So your argument simply does not stand up to reality.


[edit on 30-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

"Even the oft-misquoted Pike said in the introduction to "Morals & Dogma" that anyone was free to disagree with anything in the book that he found to be untrue or unsound."

Even the oft-misrepresented David Icke says in his introduction to ALL his books that anyone was free to disagree with anything in the book, that they find to be against their 'current' knowledge.

This means ANYTHING you don't think he has provided evidence of, which means interdimensional beings are definitely on the list of things without any independently verified evidence whatsoever, can be ignored, but the FACTS remain!

And yet, who considers David Icke to have done ANY research worthy of note?

P Manly Hall and Albert Pike are just misunderstood, while their research is excellent, does this mean you throw out all the research they did? NO. And yet, this is exactly the case for ANYONE who has tried to find evidence of QUESTIONABLE business deals between members of private organizations, not necessarily within ONLY ONE organization.

Every time I have given personal accounts of Freemasonry that deserve criticism, I have been ignored, so no wonder you guys seem to have forgotten.

Originally posted by akilles
And yet, who considers David Icke to have done ANY research worthy of note?

The man claims that there are alien reptiles who "morph" into humans.

Based on that alone, what kind of complete moron would consider ANYTHING he says as "worthy of note" ??????

Geeezzzz!

Also, I never said Pike was "misunderstood" His research was good and he was entitled to his opinion...but he didn't speak for Freemasonry...just as Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, USA, and even then he said anyone could disregard anything they found to be unsound in his "Morals & Dogma"

What I DID say about Pike was that his writing is misCONSTRUED and LIED about. There's a big difference.

Pike likely didn't believe in morphing alien reptiles, either. At least he never wrote about them anyway....


[edit on 30-3-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by akilles
Every time I have given personal accounts of Freemasonry that deserve criticism, I have been ignored, so no wonder you guys seem to have forgotten.

Akilles, you do more than just give individual accounts of Freemasonry that deserve criticism! You insinuate that masons are part of a bigger conspiracy, you accuse us of being devil worshippers, you lie about our numerology and symbols, you make sarcastic remarks about EVERYTHING we post, and all in all you say some really offensive stuff about us.

Hey, I'm back! And I see the same old empty arguments...
Manly P. Hall was made a 33d degree Freemason for his contributions to Freemasonry. If this book, or the information in it, was anathema to Freemasonry, he would not have been honored with the last and final degree.

Yeah, no one speaks for Freemasonry. Or the KKK, or the Hells Angels, or the Mafia. But individual members speak, and if anyone in any group I was in said the things that will be posted later, I'd either leave the group, or slap them into next Tuesday, or both.

Freemasons on religion, and the religious aspect of Freemasonry:

C.W. Leadbeater; Freemasonry: Its Ancient and Mystic Rites; Page 10:
The performance of the ritual of each degree is intended to call down spiritual power, first to assist the Bro. upon whom the degree is conferred to awaken within himself that aspect of consciousness which corresponds to the symbolism of the degree, as far as it can be awakened; secondly to aid in the evolution of the members present; and thirdly and most important of all, to pour out a flood of spiritual power intended to uplift, strengthen and encourage all members of the Craft.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Page 141:
The ancient mystery schools of all ages, which were secret, all taught the same spiritual truths that are veiled and hidden in our rituals, working tools, lodge furnishings and the proper function of Masonic Lodge officials and their stations in the Lodge.

Manly P. Hall; What the Ancient Wisdom expects of its Disciples; Page 14:
There is no greater honor than to be called to the service of this eternal Wisdom which was before the beginning and which will ultimately become the visible exoteric ruling body of the planet.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Page 29:
Masonry is the descendant of, or is founded upon, a divinely imparted religion which long antedates the prime date of creation as given in our Bible. Masonry and its allegorical rituals, and its symbols and numbers, is all that remains to us of the first world religion which flourished in an antiquity so old that it is impossible to affix a date. It was the first unified world religion. ....
Today we are working again towards a world universal religion.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Page 109:
Is it not possible from a contemplation of this side of Masonic teaching that it may provide all that is necessary for the formulation of a universal religion? May it not be true, as has been said, that if all religions and Scriptures were blotted out and only Masonry were left in the world we could still recover the great plan of salvation?

A revitalised Masonry, made up of Masons true to their obligations and realising the Mystic Tie that binds them all ether in one true brotherhood, would also provide a platform so universal that it would meet the need of thinkers of all kinds and of every school of thought. It would thus not only meet a religious need by providing a universal religion...

Foster Bailey; Things To Come; Page 117
As to universality: competition between religions is recognised as folly. The churchmen of Christianity have imprisoned the Christ in their own separative religious organisations to such an extent that one might almost think that God loved only Christians. Such a man-made concept of God is silly and unattractive. The word Christ is a name in the Hierarchy for the holder of an all embracing world-wide divine leadership and as so used, transcends orthodox limitations. Christ to the modern mind is an active, intelligent world executive, and a living man today. His vision and his action are for all men. He is not at all limited to Christianity.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; Page 46:
at the heart of every great religion, lie the same eternal truths. Forms and observances only differ.
.... Masonry is not only a universal science, but a world-wide religion, and owes allegiance to no one creed, and can adopt no sectarian dogma...without ceasing thereby to be Masonic.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; Page 47:
Is Jesus any the less Christos, because Christna was called "the Good Shepherd?" or because the Mexican Christ was crucified between two thieves? or because Hiram was three days in a grave before he was resurrected? Are we not as selfish in our religion as in our other possessions? Then why is man, while cherishing as his most sacred possession, the religion of his fathers, eternally seeking to degrade and destroy that of his Brother?
...Masonry is the Universal Religion only because, and only so long, as it embraces all religions. For this reason, and this alone, it is universal and eternal.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; Page 50:
There is no fact in history more easily and completely demonstrable than the existence of the Secret Doctrine in all ages among all people, and of Adepts or Masters who were familiar with its teachings, and were more or less capable of expounding its principles.
It is equally demonstrable that this Secret Doctrine was the real foundation of every great Religion known to man; that only the initiated Priest or Hierophant knew the real doctrines in any case, and only these, as a rule, in the earliest history of each religion.
Furthermore, the Sacred Books of all religions, including those of the Jews and the Christians, were and are no more than parables and allegories of the real Secret Doctrine, transcribed for the ignorant and superstitious masses.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; Page 52:
"To recapitulate; the Secret Doctrine was the universally diffused religion of the ancient and prehistoric world. Proof of its diffusion, authentic records of its history, a complete chain of documents, showing its character and presence in every land, together with the teaching of all its great Adepts, exist to this day in the secret crypts of libraries belonging to the Occult Fraternity."

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; Page 66:Masonry does not preach a new religion, it but reiterates the New Commandment announced by
Jesus, which was also announced by every great reformer of religion since history began. Drop the theological barnacles from the Religion of Jesus, as taught by Him, and by the Essenes and Gnostics of the first centuries, and it becomes Masonry.

Foster Bailey; Things To Come; Page 119:
By far the most important event for humanity in the imminent future is the reappearance of the Christ. ...
Definite preparation for that reappearance was immediately put in hand by the entire Hierarchy of Masters and reorganisation of the Hierarchy itself begun. This preparation for the coming is the main focus in the Hierarchy today.... Masters of the Wisdom are preparing to undertake work in physical bodies and some have already done so.

If the last couple of remarks are starting to sound a little freaky - big freaky to follow.

Originally posted by Researcher
Hey, I'm back! And I see the same old empty arguments...
Manly P. Hall was made a 33d degree Freemason for his contributions to Freemasonry. If this book, or the information in it, was anathema to Freemasonry, he would not have been honored with the last and final degree.

Again, being honored with the 33rd degree is only by the opinion of a the 33rd degree council, an APPENDANT BODY of masonry that DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL OF MASONRY. I still don't get why you guys think that these appendant degrees are so important.

If the last couple of remarks are starting to sound a little freaky - big freaky to follow.

I love how you only look for quotes that suite your purpose. Especially when there's 50000 times more quotes that would prove you wrong. For every quote you find that makes masonry sound bad, there's waaaay more that make it sound like it really is. So it only goes to show that you are looking for ONLY those texts that will fit your agenda, and not really looking for a fair and balanced view of masonry.


[edit on 30-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Researcher
Hey, I'm back!

Oh goodie! We thought maybe you'd left and took Akilled, Greenboy and Mrs Necros with you. Too bad....

And I see the same old empty arguments...

Yeah. Too bad you weren't here to contribute to the emptiness....

Manly P. Hall was made a 33d degree Freemason for his contributions to Freemasonry. If this book, or the information in it, was anathema to Freemasonry, he would not have been honored with the last and final degree.

Says who? Prove that. Were YOU PRESENT when the Supreme Council voted him to receive the 33rd Degree? How do you KNOW this? How do you know they didn't just say "Hmmm. He seems nice. Let's give him the 33rd Degree" ? ? They can do that you know! They did it with Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld) Yep. He's a 33rd Degree Mason. Now THERE'S an evil person and member of the New World Order. Gosh! When he comes to power, we'll probably ALL have to wear our hair like that. EGAD!

Oh! Excuse me???? You don't REALLY know this to be true???!!!! You were just spouting ignorance like all the other trolls since you have NO CLUE how Masonry works...you NOT being a Mason and all.... OK. I see.

More speculation from a non-Mason who doesn't know what he's talking about. [YAWN]




[edit on 30-3-2005 by senrak]