You little terrorist

Originally posted by 00PS

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Delirious
Terrorism wouldnt solve any of those problems, and the situations dont justify terrorism.

Exactly!

Terrorism is bad - under ANY circumstance.

If one wishes to FIGHT a MILITARY - fine. That is what they are for - just leave the civilians out of it.

I disagree, terrorism is a legitimate form of warfare and if you can't handle it then it only shows you truly recognize how great a power it is and you fear it.

I would attack civilians no problem. They must be guilty of something though.

If Bill Gates is responsible for the deaths of millions who should we attack? The US Government? What if the US Government protects him? Well We just Attack Bill Gates then.

BUT WAIT NOOOOOOOO

He's a Civilian you cry out...

who cares what you think, obviouly you are far behind the times and don't realize it's the civilians screwing up the world, not the army!

TERRORISM WORKS

YOU FEAR IT

IT IS LEGITIMATE

USE IT IF YOU NEED TO

terrorism does not work, it is like a virus, it destroys its host and therefore, destroys its purpose in propagation.

again, OOPS, civilians are not legitimate targets, but Guerrilla warfare is legitimate warfare. terrorism targets civilians and therefore will never be considered legitimate warefare by the people of the world. of course, if you engage in terrorism, you are warped enough to believe that it is legitimate or that it is your only way to fight a powerful force, but whether or not you believe it, it will only get you and your cause killed in the end, even if it takes 50 years or more to do it, your cause will eventually convince the world that your terrorism was not worth it and you will be the enemy in history books. now, if you are a mildly successful guerrilla fighter and you attack legitimate targets, you will then more than likely go down favorably in history books, even if you lose.

as far as being so willing to attack civilians, i'd keep that to myself if i were you, aren't you a civilian?

You miss the point that the destruction of the world is done mainly by decisions made by civilians sitting in board rooms discussing profits and exploitation.

If they are not legitimate targets than what is? The military of the country that hosts them?

What about Multinational Corporations? Attacking Coutnries' governments and militaries is not the right move in this situation...attacking the Ceo's investors and those who enable them to do their work is.

And they are civilians...

No to government sponsored terrorism. Now for some true idealism: imagine a planet where all governments passified their arms, and put money into the enviornment and for ending hunger. Who would want to be a terrorist then?

*tiniest violin*

First let me paste this here: You have voted drogo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month. What a great post Drogo!

Since I moved to France two years ago, I have bonded with my wife's grandfather, who was a member of "La Résistance" during the Nazi occupation, and seen plenty of historical docudramas on French TV glorifying this 'terrorism'--even the airport is named after Charles de Gaulle, the Résistance's leader. I can't help but wonder if its intentionally timed with the Iraq occupation.

The Revolutionary Warwas a time when men were illegally rose up against their government in British and American history. However, there is one big difference between modern (post-industrial) resistance movements and those of the 18th century. This difference is context, and context is everything.

As war has changed with industrialization and scientific advances, bombings like at Dresden and London (not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki or Fallujah and Baghdad) have indiscrimately killed more civilians than during all the pre-industrial wars, back when fighting took place outside the walls of a city or at a Maginot Line . As society has gained scientific power, and used it to kill, it has become less discriminate with regards to who exactly dies. This is even the case under a mandate. This has been called "Total War" and discussed in greater detail by Paul Virilio in his book called Pure War.

If a society, or nation, issues its military a mandate to carry out total war which kills civilians indiscriminately (even if that is not the goal in itself), then how can it discriminate terrorism (especially terrorism in an occupied state like Iraq or Palestine) from activites like those of La Résistance or the American Revolutionaries?

Mandate is a meaningless idea in this debate. If Americans are conscious of the violence inflicted on civilians in war, and endorse it democratically, couldn't the international community think of the US as a minority fringe group that is using its power to get away with vengeful terrorist activities of its own? Hint: much of the international community does think this. Can't you just hear the terror in the screams Iraqi women on TV, or does a certain callous racism called patriotism make it all ok?

I think the idea that 100 percent of the population would be terrorists under the right conditions is a little shaky. It is true that many more would be than would like to think of themselves that way, but historically the political situation has always changed before things got bad enough to mobilize the entire population.

I personally would rather be shot down dead in a peaceful protest that ultimately failed than die in a warlike situation or as a suicide bomber . I think Gandhi's success in India against the British Empire is a model for revolutionary political change, and his methods will always win more international public support than the terrorists.

In many games these days, terrorism is frequently used and even highly enjoyed. Any connection to reality.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by chinalurker]

i have to agree. video games both show how easily we adopt terrorist actons, and can even be said to be trained as such (deus ex is a good example of this).
as another example in the old ultima vidio games. i had been out for a while and returned home to find my cousin playing (he was around 12 at the time). that was ok i told him he was welcome to play when i wasn't. what disturbed me however was that he seemed to kill everyone within the game. whether it be needed to compleate the game or just "civilians" wandering arround that were not worth anything, just for fun.

while i think that everyone is responsible for their own action. why did he consider it such fun to go on a killing spree? sure he got a little money off the corpses. thing is he killed the shop owners as well so he could not even spend the money. also this was in the early 90's before we had the ultra violent vidio games we have today. so obviously they were not to blame.

it seems to me especialy when looking back through history man has the capacity to be extreemly cruel and violent. i give you examples:
the roman areana games, and the fact that the spectaters were extreemly into it. going so far as to idalize individual gladiaters.

the vikeing raids. now they made quick work of killing those who were only trying to escape. not to metion rape and cruel torture.yet these same norsemen had an enlightend moal code and political systom that was close to democracy. woman's rights, even a set down justice systom includeing a type of court/trial systom for wrong doing.not to mention thier laws.

the aztec again another advanced culture. they are known for live human sacrofice and torture.

the natzi party. i don't think i have to say much on their actions.

the japanese. just ask all the poor chinese and koreans about the idignaties they suffered. some things that seem to be glossed over are the fact bayonet and sword work teaching both used live targets to train on. the way they treated both prisoners of war and civilian prisoners.i would state that they even surpass the natzies in cruelty and indifferance for human life.

the way that indians were hunted down like wolves. the way the indians terrorized the american settlers.

the soviets. i am sure that most know that stalian's purges killed millions

i could go on i don't know of any society that did not commit war or other violance on their fellow man. even what we would call atrocitys and terror crimes.

all in all the human race tends to be a violent creature to say the least.

Originally posted by 00PS
You miss the point that the destruction of the world is done mainly by decisions made by civilians sitting in board rooms discussing profits and exploitation.

If they are not legitimate targets than what is? The military of the country that hosts them?

What about Multinational Corporations? Attacking Coutnries' governments and militaries is not the right move in this situation...attacking the Ceo's investors and those who enable them to do their work is.

And they are civilians...

I'd like to expand on this post by 00PS;

The government needs these huge corporations, and the huge corporations need the government... They cover eachothers backs all the time... The corporations tell the government what needs doing, and the government does it... Why?... To make money to fund the country... With those funds the government then protects the corporations by spreading mass propaganda and expands its empire by taking virtual control over other nations resources... Thus allowing the huge corporations to make more money - Its a vicious cycle, a circle with no circumference...

Capitalism is such a complicated and complex system of government, that none of you Americans understand why you are able to live the way you live (apparently free)...

Heres a simple answer, you force poorer countries to live and operate...

Originally posted by: chinalurker

under the following environments:

1.) Extreme, long term hunger
2.) Unjustified, brutal maltreatment
3.) Emotional deep depression
4.) Hate
5.) Total life indifference
6.) Life threatening situation (Terrorize Vs Die)

Ghost Soldier, you truly are a soldier and I was glad I could help you out with your avvie, it well suits you.

We should speak directly and concisely as Che did.

This is a political struggle as much as it is a militaristic one and as such it must target civilians, the politicians and those who create environmental and corporate policy across the globe.

I am a terrorist in the eyes of the Bush Administration the minute I take action according to my beliefs and wills. This is one reason I left the USA. If I Take Action again then I must be with a band of brothers doing effective long lasting deeply significant and understood by the public.

Last action I took was with 100 people taking over the Democrat Campaign Headquarters in 2000 in my city, previous to that was the WTO. Action in the USA cannot be protest, it must be true guerilla warfare for which I would be brand a terrorist.

One of my first Ideas ever was this.

Have a black van with no windows.
Have a metal cutting carbide blade saw or whateer.
Cut Down Those Towering Gas Station Signs so they fall across the streets.

Kinda like cutting down trees, but cars cant move because the streets are blocked and the media is all over that the signs of gas station companies are falling down.

This is Guerilla warfare in the most mildest way.

Originally posted by 00PS
This is a political struggle as much as it is a militaristic one and as such it must target civilians, the politicians and those who create environmental and corporate policy across the globe.

If the civillians of America, or any other imperialistic nation for that matter, actually realised, understood and cared what their government was doing... Felt disgusted by it and thought "Hey these fellow human beings need fighting for lets do something about it..." And actually went out of their way to solve the problems then imagine this...

A world without "terrorism" would exist...

Originally posted by 00PS
I am a terrorist in the eyes of the Bush Administration the minute I take action according to my beliefs and wills. This is one reason I left the USA. If I Take Action again then I must be with a band of brothers doing effective long lasting campaigns deeply significant and understood by the public.

The US needs a social awakening...

Originally posted by 00PS
Last action I took was with 100 people taking over the Democrat Campaign Headquarters in 2000 in my city, previous to that was the WTO. Action in the USA cannot be protest, it must be true guerilla warfare for which I would be brand a terrorist.

The chances of a guerilla movement being successful at this time in history is very unlikely, for reasons stated above... The public has not been awakened...

Originally posted by 00PS
You miss the point that the destruction of the world is done mainly by decisions made by civilians sitting in board rooms discussing profits and exploitation.

If they are not legitimate targets than what is? The military of the country that hosts them?

What about Multinational Corporations? Attacking Coutnries' governments and militaries is not the right move in this situation...attacking the Ceo's investors and those who enable them to do their work is.

And they are civilians...

00PS,
Are the CEO's and investors aware of the implications of their decisions? Fully aware? Or are they indoctrinated in a country where communism is a bad word and sent through business schools to program them that profit is God? Is violence against these investors and executives going to change more than Noreena Hertz's socialist economic research? Killing people is a oversimplified solution. At this point, the system would just install replacements anyways--the system has to be changed from within, and that change can be revolutionary as well--and you don't have to kill people.

I think the real "legitimate target" is the implementation of governmental policy and business practices based on a post-neo-classical economic paradigm.

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
Are the CEO's and investors aware of the implications of their decisions? Fully aware? Or are they indoctrinated in a country where communism is a bad word and sent through business schools to program them that profit is God?

Its a bit of both, but you would be ignorant to think that the richest and most powerful wallstreet fatcats did NOT know what they were doing... They know exactly whats going on, and they know they are responsible... In their eyes its a "dog eat dog world.."

But, isn't the fact that the world is a "dog eat dog world" just merely a product of our social conditioning... You bet it is, and the problem can be solved, like you said - "from the inside" - So agree with you that the problem is in our society as a whole and in particular our education.

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
Is violence against these investors and executives going to change more than Noreena Hertz's socialist economic research? Killing people is a oversimplified solution. At this point, the system would just install replacements anyways--the system has to be changed from within, and that change can be revolutionary as well--and you don't have to kill people.

They can't replace people for ever... ... As you said it is a simple solution, but it is not the only solution... and it would need to be implemented along side non-violent social reforms...

None the less, a revolution needs to happen
It is our duty as revolutionaries to awaken all those trapped inside the box of imperialistic social conditioning...

Killing them is bad

I am against capital punishment as it is ineffective.

Labour Camps for the rest of their lives I say.

Kidnapping, Ransom, Blackmail, Bribery, Entrapment


These are tools of Guerilla Warfare too. To be used against the Upper echelons who are civilians yes, but if they are guilty then they need justice to be brought upon them.

Targeting civilians is 'terroristic' by many.

I call it guerilla warfare, and it doesn't have to mean murdering innocent people

It can mean the justice brough upon guilty people!

Killing is bad. Self Defense is ok..but killing still sucks.

Originally posted by 00PS
Labour Camps for the rest of their lives I say.

That'd be a culture shock for many of them... ... Half of those people have never worked a day in their life... Personally I don't care what it done to them, as long as their power has been removed, and the opressed people are liberated and freed from their metaphorical chains...

"Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains..."
-- Karl Marx

perhaps the child born into the wrong place at the wrong time, and subsequently becomes a terrorist is surrounded by an equal brainwashing as the child who knows nothing of tragedy and war except what he/she learns on the TV. both children are taught to hate.

i do not blame either children. they were born into their biases.

i would hope though at some point any individual would realize that their 'enemy' is not the the individual on the other side of the fence, but rather those who built the fence and refuse to take it down.

edit:

Lightbeing, like you said, "true idealism." Its a beautiful dream but as long as we are humans, nature will never let it happen.

if ever that dream were accepted officially, the revolutionary changes to all earth-societies would have to span a major chunk in time.

If only there was a way to keep that dream in the minds of everyone for an extended period of time.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by lost]

Originally posted by lost
perhaps the child born into the wrong place at the wrong time, and subsequently becomes a terrorist is surrounded by an equal brainwashing as the child who knows nothing of tragedy and war except what he/she learns on the TV. both children are taught to hate.

i do not blame either children. they were born into their biases.

i would hope though at some point any individual would realize that their 'enemy' is not the the individual on the other side of the fence, but rather those who built the fence and refuse to take it down.

Lightbeing, like you said, "true idealism." Its a beautiful dream but as long as we are humans, nature will never let it happen.

if ever that dream were accepted officially, the revolutionary changes to all earth-societies would have to span a major chunk in time.

It is true that we are all products of our childhood, and education is playing the biggest role in our eventual demise - or lack of it I should say...

Originally posted by lost
If only there was a way to keep that dream in the minds of everyone for an extended period of time.

How about some objective education in schooling, schools these days are the governments "social-engineering" devices... Most schools do not teach kids to grow up and be individuals and try and better the world - they teach them to fit into the mold the government wants... Get out there, go to uni, get a job and pay your taxes... Thats all they want...

[edit on 18-3-2005 by ghostsoldier]

ghostsoldier, you're right, our capitalistic lifestyle has taught us that $$ is the name of the game. thus, there is this inbred sense of competition and relative gain. few people have time to worry about bettering the global community because were in this giant race for our own personal securities.

its still a nice dream though.

Originally posted by lost
few people have time to worry about bettering the global community because were in this giant race for our own personal securities.

its still a nice dream though.

Alas... I doesn't have to be a dream though, I don't understand people who do not want to be awakened and removed from the cycle that will eventually lead to their death, inwhich there life had little to no meaning, bar a few zeros in their bank account, and a few kids to grow up emulating their parents and starting the destructive cycle again...

human ignorance

until it becomes a 'reality', it is still a 'dream' by me. dont get me wrong, i would love for it to happen - but im a realist and have accepted human-nature. hopefully there will be some major revolutionary changes in how we humans think. individual survival has always been top priority.

Originally posted by 00PS
Killing them is bad

I am against capital punishment as it is ineffective.

Labour Camps for the rest of their lives I say.

and why don't you just call it Auschwitz II?

i have come to realize a great many people here are complete and utter idiots and i am going to, very soon, delete this from my "favorites" and rarely, if ever, participate again in this nonsense. OOPS, Ghostsoldier, a few others including Marg**** (numbers of some sort) and Souljah. just amazing what some of you believe and are willing to accept in place of the truth. one- that terrorism is ok for the right reasons, two- that somehow, these are the right reasons, three- that you know what is best for the world and that, for some reason, it's not the path we're headed in now, four- that every single conspiracy theory is right because it couldn't have just been completely made-up because it just connects the dots so well, well, here's some reality for you- the dots are not connected that well in real life, in the really-real world. connections are messy, but they are better than the fact that one guy knew another guy who worked for a company that did this or that for this other company that did this or that for the government, etc. etc. etc. it's old, man, it's old. it's tired and it has worn out all it's fun in arguing against it. it's like trying to get the truth from a pathological liar, he'll just keep making up more and more ridiculous stories to keep from ever saying he lied. yeah, yeah, i'm sure that's what you think you could say about the "other" side, and whatever, maybe you could keep talking and eventually convince some people you were right. fiction will always be much stranger than the truth, and much stronger. the truth is always bland, it's always so much less colorful. some people just need the drama to make life interesting, now that we can all watch it on TV. it's entertainment. you seek to be an integral part in the entertainment. instead of trying to be a movie star, a porn star or a music star, like the old american dream, you seek to be a conspiracy star, the one who started the revolution, not by ACTING of course, but by TALKING, and really, not by TALKING, but by TYPING on an ON-LINE MESSAGE BOARD, not even something legitimate, how pathetic, and weak.

yeah, i'v participated up to now, but as mentioned, it's old. i'm tired and this just sucks now. i came in here thinking there might be some sort of conspiracy in the world and i am leaving fully convinced there is not, that this, the war on terror, the work in Iraq and Afghanistan, the work in other middle eastern countries and in Asia, Russia, and other places around the world, is legitimate and right. you people, the ones who said it IS a conspiracy, are the ones who've convinced me otherwise. you've made it all a complete fantasy.

i'm signing off now. hope you have a wonderfully fulfilled fantasy life. it's a bit like playing Dungeons and Dragons or Magic, or whatever you sort of people do with your free time, isn't it? just roll some dice and say your bit and make up anything you want to tie it all together, like a numerologist or a Tarot card reader. just keep the myth alive, it will continue to pay the bills. it will continue to afford you your exitement, your drama, your connection to the world, only, your connection has been cut-off and you'll never know it. running round like rats, never knowing the experiment is long, long over.

well, onto more important things...............

Funnily enough there as this little altercation is Sydney - the news shots looked like palestine, ireland and any other place.

Poverty, lack of education, lack of a future will always breed contempt for *society* - call it what you will.

It is simply desperation.

Take away your fatass job, your dignity, your ability to feed your family, your country....I imagine many, many americans would strap on the bomb.

Now, they would be *patriots.....

God knows you love your violence enough.

To fight for your right to live is in human nature...isnt it obvious, when all this stuff occurs in hellholes?

Dont be surprised when it happens in your neighbourhood.