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Ecclesiastes (6) Everything beautiful in its time

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posted on Oct, 9 2020 @ 05:00 PM
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The book of Ecclesiastes tends to be neglected.
I must admit that I’ve been neglecting it myself.
So I come to this book with no preconceptions, except that a book found in the Old Testament must be intended to have a spiritual meaning. The people who compiled the canon were not in the business of collecting an anthology of “Hebrew literature.

Ch3 vv9-15

We’ve just been given the poem about “ a time for every purpose under heaven”.
As a reminder;


V9; “What gain has the worker from his toil?”
The RSV, but nobody else, lays this out as the last line of the poem.
In that case, the poem would end on a rhetorical question with an implied negative answer;
“In the light of all these things, what does he gain? Nothing.”

But the verse is really introducing the explanation that follows;
“In the light of all these things, what does he gain? I’ll tell you…”

V10 “I have seen the business that Gid has given to the son of man to be busy with.”
In the opening chapter, at the beginning of this inquiry, he had said;
“I applied my mind to seek out by wisdom all that is done under heaven” and the preliminary conclusion was “It is an unhappy business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with” (ch1 v13).
But now that he’s coming to the end of the inquiry (it seems to me), he has reached a different conclusion about men’s “business”;

V11 “He has made everything beautiful in its time.”
This is what the worker gains from his toil. The poem has told us that there is a time for everything. We now learn that everything is beautiful as long as it keeps to its right place and time. That is the true moral of the poem.

“Also he has put eternity into man’s mind,
Yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”
We are defined by the combination of these two features.
On the one hand, we can know the concept of eternity.
On the other hand, we cannot know thoroughly what eternity means.
The result of the combination is that we are permanently conscious of something beyond ourselves.
As Browning says; “A man’s reach should exceed his grasp. Or what’s a heaven for?”

If we were beasts, we would know nothing about eternity.
If we were gods, we would know everything about eternity.
The statement in this verse places us exactly halfway between those two positions.

Vv12-13. We’ve already been told about God’s gift to man, that there is nothing better than he should eat and drink and find pleasure in his toil. These verses are a repetition, with the addition of “be happy and enjoy themselves”.

V14 “I know that what God does endures for ever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it…
V15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks [i.e. brings back, I suppose] what has been driven away.”
These two verses re-affirm what we have been told about the cycles of natural life, extending it by implication to the cycles of human life.
V14- The cycles themselves may be about perpetual change, but there is no change in the overall system of cycles.
V15- A re-affirmation of “there is nothing new under the sun”.

The statement which I have left out provides the moral;
“God has made it so, in order that men should fear before him.”

This is the Biblical “fear” of God, which means the respect and obedience due to someone infinitely greater than ourselves.

I fancy that this is the real core of the message of this book. Most of what follows may be just footnotes. It turns out to be similar to Job’s message of accepting in faith what God does because he is the Creator God.

“God has made it so, in order that men should fear before him.”


edit on 9-10-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2020 @ 05:03 PM
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edit on 10-10-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2020 @ 08:32 PM
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This is the Biblical “fear” of God, which means the respect and obedience due to someone infinitely greater than ourselves.


Yet they used the word "fear". Perhaps fearing God is fearing the death of that self that chases the empty wind. But what is it, that exists beyond that self, that chases the empty wind....

Jesus said.... "For unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins".



posted on Oct, 11 2020 @ 02:02 AM
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a reply to: glend
Yes, but they did not use the Englsih word "fear" with its own particular set of overtones. They used a Hebrew word. Translators have decided that the word "fear" is the nearest equivalent, but the oevrtones are overlapping rather than an exact match. In particular, the pejorative side of "fear", as something to be ashamed of, is not present when they talk about "fear of God". That's why it's useful to be aware of these differences in language usage, instead of relying legalistically on the words of translation.

Let me give you another example. The word "hope", in modern English usage, implies a great deal of uncertainty. "I hope so", means "I don't have much confidence in it, though". There is no uncertainty in the New Testament usage of the word translated as "hope".


edit on 11-10-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2020 @ 11:41 AM
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I just re-read Ecclesiastes last week, coincidently

great stuff.

can be depressing if you leave God out of the equation.

one thing I've noticed in my life experiences; there really are different times for different things.
sometimes you have to get in someone's face.
sometimes you let things go.
sometimes you scrimp and save.
sometimes you splurge and treat yourself a bit.
sometimes you seek out certain people. sometimes not.

the journey continues. walk on, friends and neighbors, walk on.
edit on 01032020 by ElGoobero because: add content



posted on Oct, 11 2020 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: ElGoobero
I'm working my way through gradually, as the only way of coming to grips with it. I don't know if you'v noticed the previous entries in the series, but more are coming.



posted on Oct, 11 2020 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks DISRAELI, you are a wealth of knowledge.



posted on Oct, 12 2020 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

This song is adapted from the book of Ecclesiastes.



posted on Oct, 12 2020 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain
Yes, it's the song linked in the OP, different singers. I looked at that poem as such in the previous thread.



posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 02:49 PM
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posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 03:55 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
This is the Biblical “fear” of God, which means the respect and obedience due to someone infinitely greater than ourselves.
Yes, but they did not use the Englsih word "fear" with its own particular set of overtones. They used a Hebrew word. Translators have decided that the word "fear" is the nearest equivalent, but the oevrtones are overlapping rather than an exact match. In particular, the pejorative side of "fear", as something to be ashamed of, is not present when they talk about "fear of God". That's why it's useful to be aware of these differences in language usage, instead of relying legalistically on the words of translation.

Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God before him. (KJV)
Eccl 3:14 I know that whatever God does endures for ever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; God has made it so, in order that men should fear before him. (RSV)
We talked about this in Your Eccl 5 commentary/teaching you posted where I asked you if you ever did a complete word study only yesterday. www.abovetopsecret.com... I have done a complete word study in both Hebrew and Greek on the word Fear. And for this reply I will only use the Hebrew word that is used in Eccl 3:14

ary yare', yaw-ray'
. Yawray is found 305 times in the Hebrew, It is the same word used in your post Eccl 3:14 translated fear. The word here means the Fear and not respect or obedience due someone infinitely greater than ourselves. You made that up or got it from someone else. Yawray is used over 300 times in the Bible and it is all but two times used as fear, feared, fearful, fearing, feareth, afraid, affright, dreadful, dread, terrible thing/things, terrible, and terribleness. That literally means FEAR as in being afraid of something or someone, not out respect, not reverence to any being. But out of fear of DEATH. HARM or DANGER.

Now, and it is important to note that this is not how the word yawray is used in Eccl 3:19. Yawray is used only 2 times as reverence in the KJV and the RSV that you are quoting from (this is not a word you said it meant but in your statement that is basically implied), and (this is important) only in the book of Leviticus, and it had to do with a place not a person or a being stronger than ourselves, called the sanctuary not a person.

Lev 19:30 ¶ Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. (KJV)
Lev 26:2 You shall keep my sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. (RSV)
In conclusion to say that the word fear in Eccl 3:14 "MEANS" (a quote from your OP)"This is the Biblical “fear” of God, which means the respect and obedience due to someone infinitely greater than ourselves.". Is either a mistake because you never studied by listing the word out and defining the meaning of the word fear in it context or the first uses and other uses of the word, made it up (a lie) or you got it from another source which you are not identifying as an honest person would.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
You are definitely not Studying to shew thyself approved unto God. One might think you are showing yourself approved unto the god of this world, the prince and power of the air. He to added and took away from the words of God (Gen3).

BTW the word "respect" in the Hebrew are entirely different words in the Hebrew.


edit on 10/14/2020 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
That's interesting. You normally object to making reference to the original Hebrew or Greek words.

I have a lexicon which offers "reverence, honour, awe" as synonyms. My explanation is paraphrasing to make the point that we are not expected to fear God with the kind of fear that is provoked by evil, threatening things (an explanation which is necessary because modern sceptics are prone to read that sense into the word).



posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 05:06 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

If you remember from previous posts I said, "the only time I will reference the Hebrew or Greek is when it supports the KJV ENGLISH WORDS of God. In this case it also supported the true meaning of the word fear as found in the RSV book of Eccl as well.

Lexicons are the work of men not the Bible. Try studying to shew THYSELF approved unto God. I do my own word studies. I define the word by the context and in my study of the word Fear I had to go to the Hebrew to organize which words were which so that I had a better Idea how many times fear is used by different Hebrew words. That is how I knew you were in error. I was very familiar with the word FEAR.

May I suggest, Drop the Lexicon and get an Exhaustive Concordance. Don't rely on the Hebrew or Greek dictionaries listed in them, just use the lists to find all the uses and do your own word Study. Define the words by their context and in the end you will have a Biblical Based List of Word definitions, literally a very sound bible dictionary of your own based on Gods words alone.

You literally miss the point on why God inspired his preserved words in the KJV (and it was kept by the RSV translators) to Solomon.


edit on 10/14/2020 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
I don't resent scholars, so I don't need to boycott the help they can offer.



posted on Oct, 14 2020 @ 06:31 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ChesterJohn
I don't resent scholars, so I don't need to boycott the help they can offer.


Then what you are doing is not following the command of God for a teacher or basically any believer or saved man to study or even to do your best as the RSV changed and added and removed the words. You admit to cherry picking a specific lexicon over a good Holy Ghost filled heartfelt study. So you are at best in error because of the sin of not following the command, and at worse unsaved in that case you can never know God's words. NOT A JUDGEMENT just an observation.

So you openly admit you are unintentionally plagiarizing, which literally means you are taking the work of others, restating in your own words and not giving them any credit for their study by making it look as your own. That takes a real man to admit that. You are also admitting you don't really study for yourself but take the words of others without seeing if that is really what the Bible words, phrases, verses and sections say. That is a dangerous place to be in my ATS friend.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. KJV


Once again it is all about a translation of verse 15 of Eccl 3 added some words without letting you know it had done so. The RSV is based on 45 text more than a few are Roman Catholic Texts and a few were written less that 200 years ago based on those RC texts

The KJV lets its readers know which words they added for ease of reading in the English by Italicizing them. NO other English Translation does that.

See the chart below nothing was left out these are the actual list they themselves said they used over the TR and other manuscripts. They also Cherry picked only a few Papyrus fragments to use and ignored the others.



edit on 10/14/2020 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2020 @ 12:39 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
This is where the vicious circle could begin all over again.
I suspect you are counted in God's books as a slothful servant.
You spend your ATS time putting other people down without attempting to do any work yourself towards presenting God to the world (which is more important than anything else we can be doing). At least, I haven't seen you writing for that purpose since you arrived on the site.

You should have learned by now that you have enough weakness in your theology, deriving from the weakness in your psychology, to make it easy for someone to respond with over-kill and arouse all your feelings of resentment and anger all over again.

I'm going to hold back from doing that, but the only way to hold back is to withdraw from contact again.

I suppose you're going to respond with some ego-compensating jeer. I'll be better off not reading it.



edit on 16-10-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2020 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Only to you because you fail to rightly divide.

If you were looking for the preserved word of God as God has promised he might open up your heart. But you do not believe have of the New Testament from what we have observed over the years and you like to use VERSIONS instead of the Bible. (look and search closely you will find the Authorized King James Bible is never called a version by the translators, it is by those who love to confuse the words of God with the words of men).



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