atlantis city or continent

me and my friend are having an argument about weather atlantis was a city or a continent so what do u guys think?

Critias says
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

The word atlantis is almost exculsively associated with a land mass.

classics.mit.edu...
classics.mit.edu...

I don't know what the pre plato greek who wrote about Atlantis described it as.

I dont know if there are any pre-plato references specifically about atlantis. Whether the records were lost because of it's age i dont know.

Plato's are the only records considered historical accounts. He actually uses Atlantis for both the continent AND the city, much like New York City is in New York the state. This is most evident in the line where he places Atlantis "midway, along the continent's longest side". Thus also establishing it as the name of the city, as well as the continent. I think this is where so much confusion comes from...

Check here...

www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by CGBSpender
I dont know if there are any pre-plato references specifically about atlantis.

One greek author wrote a book/pamphlet/whatever titled 'Atlantis'. Beyond that nothing is known about what it was about.

just wondering how a men living on a island have an empire and be so powerful enough to make europe and asia worried about their power.

Originally posted by kingjules
just wondering how a men living on a island have an empire and be so powerful enough to make europe and asia worried about their power.

I just lost the argument by Godwin's Rule. Nevertheless, England was/is an example of the power of Atlantean political organization.

just wondering how a men living on a island have an empire and be so powerful enough to make europe and asia worried about their power.

Same as their likely descendants, the Phoenicians...top naval skills at a time when everything, goods, services, even war, moved by way of the water....

Considering that the rest of the world was in a really really primitive stage when atlantis was supposed to be moderately civilized, it should't've been too difficult for them to 'hold sway' over them. Infact, in the story, egypt and athens are the ones that fend them off and are free, so if we substitute greece for athens, and keep in mind that we are talking about, what, the early bronze age here, then atlantis needn't do very much at all to occupy europe and north africa, especially considering that its as big as old libya and turkey->iran. So it can certainly field the troopers needed to defend the emporae that they'd have on the coasts and rivers.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Considering that the rest of the world was in a really really primitive stage when atlantis was supposed to be moderately civilized, it should't've been too difficult for them to 'hold sway' over them. Infact, in the story, egypt and athens are the ones that fend them off and are free, so if we substitute greece for athens, and keep in mind that we are talking about, what, the early bronze age here, then atlantis needn't do very much at all to occupy europe and north africa, especially considering that its as big as old libya and turkey->iran. So it can certainly field the troopers needed to defend the emporae that they'd have on the coasts and rivers.

But it'll require so much manpower and leave a WAY bigger imprint in history... Even if its bronze age. That's why I personally think the Atlantis story is highly exaggerated and just one of the earlier civs (like the Minoans).

No arguement here with that. If atlantis even existed in the first place, we'd still have it at the bottom of the ocean. There is no continental crust in the atlantic ocean. And there is no evidence of this civ anywhere in europe or north africa.

I think it was anartica

I say neither.

Atlantis was most likely a mid-sized island with room for a couple cities but not much larger. Not technically a continent, not technically a city.

No arguement here with that. If atlantis even existed in the first place, we'd still have it at the bottom of the ocean. There is no continental crust in the atlantic ocean. And there is no evidence of this civ anywhere in europe or north africa.

Unless the CITY is what sank...not the continent, and the continent is still there, now referred to as South America.

www.geocities.com...

We've got precolumbian sculptures of african people and animals in South America, South American herbs in Egyptian mummies, the Egyptian legends of the "Sea People" who controlled the waterways (post-Atlanteans, pre-Phonecians?). At the Altiplano we've got all of the criteria described by Plato, even down to the measurements, and even a local legend of a city vanishing by flood. It's all really right there....

Originally posted by Gazrok
Unless the CITY is what sank...not the continent, and the continent is still there, now referred to as South America.

www.geocities.com...

We've got precolumbian sculptures of african people and animals in South America, South American herbs in Egyptian mummies, the Egyptian legends of the "Sea People" who controlled the waterways (post-Atlanteans, pre-Phonecians?). At the Altiplano we've got all of the criteria described by Plato, even down to the measurements, and even a local legend of a city vanishing by flood. It's all really right there....

Could be it, but I think its a tad too far... I mean, even if they did trade to some degree (thought it would have to be some task), why would such a story be told? Why not take more interest in the closer events (like the Minoan civ being wiped out).

Then again it only has that tiny Plato reference, so maybe it makes sense in some way

Originally posted by southern_cross3
I say neither.

Atlantis was most likely a mid-sized island with room for a couple cities but not much larger. Not technically a continent, not technically a city.

I'm not convinced Atlantis existed, but if it did, I agree with southern cross, it would have had to have been small, I think, probably an island. Something the size of Crete, maybe. Most respectable historians believe that Plato basically invented Atlantis in his writings, and I don't think there are any other references to it anywhere that are not quoting Plato, although I have heard it said that there is an independent Egyptian source mentioning Atlantis, but I've never come across it. (if anyone knows about this can they post?)