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Have Jet Figher Supermaneuvarability Capabilities Been Used Often in Air-to-Air Combat?

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posted on Oct, 18 2020 @ 01:15 PM
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originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

I remember reading how the Harrier would use it's vectoring nozzles to VIFF and let enemies bypass them. Pretty cool but tricky.


I've seen this in action in new footage and in simulations, but mostly only against old or outdated aircraft with previous generation missile technology, or in some cases even using canons.

I don't think that there's ever been a WWII style turning in fight between two modern aircraft. I remember during the Balklands and the gulf when some of modern (for the day) aircraft got into fights with similar aircraft, it was missiles from beyond visual range, and it was mostly a competition between the homing capacilities of the payload and the countermeasure systems on the target aircraft.

I think that every single F16 and Mig 29 that's ever been shot down has been hit by a missile form an enemy that they never even got close to.




posted on Oct, 18 2020 @ 01:25 PM
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a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

WVR is still very emphasized, it fact is a very key part of the entire training syllabus, there is a small saying, "You can't drop a bomb if you can't BFM" and its true. You want to have a fundamental and complete understanding in every single phase of the intercept timeline from the very beginning of it at 40-60NM out all the way down to ACM (air combat maneuvering is the coordinated strategy of two fighters using BFM against an adversary). Along the intercept timeline, there are various rulers that you use to kill the enemy, who has control over the target, wingman sorting, group picture, ect. These also control whether or not you crank, notch, go cold or hot. It goes on and on, once understood though decreases time to kill and increases probability of kill significantly.

So it always starts BVR and then works its way down into the WVR environment, obviously you use the highest capability you can achieve, so if that's a BVR kill and the ROE authorize it, you do that, if the ROE call for hostile ID, then you might have to go the entire intercept timeline down to the visual range (which has its own procedures) to get the tally before engaging. The whole point of all this, is to give all the fighters in the flight an understanding of the exact role, responsibility, and contract to be performed based off the sight picture they are either seeing visually or with sensors. Then they train it to total mastery, these fighter jocks could do it almost with their eyes closed it becomes second nature, which allows them to take it even further with individual unit tactics. Got to love US military, they do it right



posted on Oct, 18 2020 @ 01:31 PM
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a reply to: Forensick

The two modes have different advantages. TWS obviously allows you to lock up to 4 contacts on the APG-68 and fire on them all with their own individual solutions, RWS is a more active mode that allows 2 contacts, but they will be actively tracked the entire way. TWS is in general considered to be junk because the chances of loss of lock are high, because its a synthetic track whereas RWS is an active radar track, so it has a much higher pK than TWS. In practice, from what I recall, RWS is preferred because most of the time you're going to be engaging bandits as a unit, wingmen will be sorted and nobody needs to track 4 contacts at a time. Having the capability there is nice, but in general you want a more accurate track of the target to increase pK.



posted on Oct, 18 2020 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: AaarghZombies

There was an Iraqi MiG (either a -25 or -29) that was downed by an EF-111 that never fired a shot, but was credited with the kill.



posted on Oct, 20 2020 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: AaarghZombies

Most fights will be from BVR. However WVR is still a possibility.



posted on Oct, 21 2020 @ 05:24 AM
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originally posted by: av8r007
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

WVR is still very emphasized, it fact is a very key part of the entire training syllabus, there is a small saying, "You can't drop a bomb if you can't BFM" and its true. You want to have a fundamental and complete understanding in every single phase of the intercept timeline from the very beginning of it at 40-60NM out all the way down to ACM (air combat maneuvering is the coordinated strategy of two fighters using BFM against an adversary). Along the intercept timeline, there are various rulers that you use to kill the enemy, who has control over the target, wingman sorting, group picture, ect. These also control whether or not you crank, notch, go cold or hot. It goes on and on, once understood though decreases time to kill and increases probability of kill significantly.

So it always starts BVR and then works its way down into the WVR environment, obviously you use the highest capability you can achieve, so if that's a BVR kill and the ROE authorize it, you do that, if the ROE call for hostile ID, then you might have to go the entire intercept timeline down to the visual range (which has its own procedures) to get the tally before engaging. The whole point of all this, is to give all the fighters in the flight an understanding of the exact role, responsibility, and contract to be performed based off the sight picture they are either seeing visually or with sensors. Then they train it to total mastery, these fighter jocks could do it almost with their eyes closed it becomes second nature, which allows them to take it even further with individual unit tactics. Got to love US military, they do it right


Do the ROE allow electronic identification by radar or would it still possible need eyes on even with the radar saying it’s a Mig



posted on Oct, 21 2020 @ 09:14 AM
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a reply to: Forensick

In Desert Storm, 27 of 33 engagements were targets detected by AWACS before the fighters saw them. On average they were detected at 70nm or more. Sixteen of 33 engagements (48%) were BVR, with 28 AIM-7s fired, and 22 hitting the target or the debris of the target.

According to the data, only four of thirteen WVR engagements required any kind of significant ACM, with only 15% of total engagements requiring ACM, and 38% of WVR requiring any kind of ACM.



posted on Oct, 21 2020 @ 05:34 PM
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This F16 had to go low and slow to shoot down this Ov-10




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