We Finally Know How Much Radiation There Is on The Moon, And It's Not Great News

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1

How cool is this, and we didn’t have spend billions to find it! Imagine, after much hazards going to a another planet and finding the same on that planet.... only to say to yourself... “I’ll be a monkey’s uncle” “we have the same thing on earth”

what happens if one day the earth is too small to support our ever expanding population?
itll be a good thing that we found these caves.

there goes my moon vacation.

originally posted by: choos
what happens if one day the earth is too small to support our ever expanding population?

Oh, it will stop expanding. All it takes is for people to feel secure that they don't need children to support them in their old age.

Besides, the thing people always overlook when they see other planets as a possible place for human expansion is that even if we manage to figure out a way to overcome the many, many obstacles and establish colonies, how long do you think it will be before they close off the planet to immigrants? The answer is "not long." So unless you're one of the few hearty and suicidal enough to make the jump right from the beginning, you're going to be stuck here on Earth with the rest of us poor slobs.

Too bad Earth sucks so much with all the air and water and green plants and resources and beautiful scenic vistas and sunsets. Such a hellhole, right?

a reply to: Blue Shift

earth can support us now and probably into the foreseeable future.
but what happens when it no longer can? got a backup plan?

originally posted by: choos

.....it'll be a good thing that we found these caves.

Wow! to think living inside the caves of the moon (and mars) because of unlivable radiation... Back to the Stone Age with the exception this time, of an evolved brain and a laptop...full circle!

Interesting, to say the least....

Besides the theoretical two month limit because of the radiation and the problems the dust may create, there's another thing that makes manned exploration of the Moon a little more problematic, the long nights, during which the only light comes from the stars and "Earth shine", along with (very) lower temperatures.

During the nights, the conditions for normal surface exploration are not present, so staying on the Moon for more than one Moon day appears to be mostly a waste of time and resources, at least to me.

originally posted by: ArMaP
.....there's another thing that makes manned exploration of the Moon a little more problematic......

Great segway, if I may....too add the problem of gravity or the lack there of for human mobility.

How is that Gravity Field Generator (for lack of ten PHD scientific sounding words) thingy that can be on spaceships, in the habitats, in the work spaces, in the cell block of your assigned living space, pocket sized for personal field generation .... going for us and coming along? Is it ready to go? Is it in production?

Take a look at two very telling short videos .... the last time we “walked” (more like drunk walked, hopped and tripped) on the moon. Surly by now our PHd’s have had decades to been able to solve this dilemma.

It should be, and is, understood that ...Yes...... for purposes outdoors, the Apollo astronauts had on heavy space suits with weighted boots and strapped on weighted life support systems to take into consideration in the balancing of their walking (if that’s what it is to be called). Albeit the latest designs suppose to minimize some of those hindering issues...IF they work.

Take a close look at what Buzz says ( in the text captions) of the video ....about walking on the moon .... this is first hand experience being foreshadowed of future moon walks ( the human, being mobile with their own two legs)




And this





Now, strip away, the outdoor gear.... you are now in the habitat.

Well, if I recall.... a recycling, oxygen scrubbing, reused breathable air generator.....has nothing to do with generating gravity (gravity as you would see on ....well i.e. the fantasy NCC 1701 Enterprise, where everyone is walking around sure footed like on earth).

It seems to me, in reality, one would still experience the same or nearly the same mobility issues in the habitat.

Your mobility will need to add......weighted foot wear, perhaps weighted diver’s belts, weighted lined clothing, etc. all the time for the little gravity that does exist....from point A to point B. Also lots of railings, bannisters, eye hook mounts, etc... Yeesh, if you Velcro (jury still out on Velcro is a result of Alien reverse engineering) everything.... that constant ripping and tearing noise, will be enough to drive you crazy.

Like being home sweet home? I think not. Long term affect may, possibly, be damaging your equilibrium. What’s long term or short term? .... well physiologically ... one to two months of 12 hours on and 12 hours off (that’s being liberal) can take its toll. Remember whether your work is scientific, mining, etc. ..... there’s a controlling timetable to keep..... time is $$$.

Yes indeed ... enjoy your new sweatshop living. I suspect the novelty and euphoria will wear out quick for a segment of humans living (surviving) on the Moon.

A shout out to you so called “benevolent” Aliens.... how about throwing us earthlings a bone? How about some tech help.... but more importantly a cure or vaccine for COVID..... can you help a brother out?? Hellllllllllo! Is this thing on???

So now instead of “where’s the beef” ... it’s “where’s the gravity”?

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: Blue Shift

earth can support us now and probably into the foreseeable future.
but what happens when it no longer can? got a backup plan?

We die. That's what happens. Easy come, easy go. Well, not me, specifically, because I'll probably already be dead. So it really is somebody else's problem.

However, we could always limit the population to optimum (not maximum) levels, and try to keep the Earth nice and clean and habitable. That could actually be easier than flying off for thousands of years to try and find another habitable planet we could live on without digging into the dirt like gophers.

But we'd have to get more organized than we are now.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Your mobility will need to add......weighted foot wear, perhaps weighted diver’s belts, weighted lined clothing, etc. all the time for the little gravity that does exist....from point A to point B. Also lots of railings, bannisters, eye hook mounts, etc... Yeesh, if you Velcro (jury still out on Velcro is a result of Alien reverse engineering) everything.... that constant ripping and tearing noise, will be enough to drive you crazy.

Instead of Velcro they could use magnets that would turn on and off with the person's movement, that's something that can be done with today's technology without any problem.
And no, we don't need aliens to invent Velcro, we just need to look at many plants that use those little hooks to grab onto animals to see that.

Like being home sweet home? I think not. Long term affect may, possibly, be damaging your equilibrium. What’s long term or short term? .... well physiologically ... one to two months of 12 hours on and 12 hours off (that’s being liberal) can take its toll. Remember whether your work is scientific, mining, etc. ..... there’s a controlling timetable to keep..... time is $$$.

The record for most consecutive days in space is 438, almost 15 months, so one month on the Moon's gravity shouldn't be a problem.
It makes things more difficult, but it's not the worst thing.

I don't know if it was mentioned on the videos you posted (I didn't watch them), but the astronauts used that sideways jump way of walking because it was the easiest they came up with when they noticed that the joints in the suits were not as easy to bend with the pressure inside the suits and no pressure outside, so they used that method that didn't involve bending the knees. That was also one of the reasons they had difficulty getting up when they fell, it wasn't easy to bend the knees.

PS: I think you aren't giving enough importance to human ingenuity, when we have a problem to solve we can do it, and sometimes in ways nobody was expecting. Because of that I don't think it will be a problem for people to adapt to things like low gravity.

originally posted by: ArMaP
It makes things more difficult, but it's not the worst thing.

No, from what I've read, the worst thing would be the dust. Like living and working in an ashtray filled with microscopic, razor sharp shards of glass. Probably worse than asbestos. And no amount of cleaning will stop that stuff from going right into everybody's lungs and into every moving part of every machine. My guess would also be that it probably carries an electrostatic charge, so computers would all be vulnerable. I would say well let the robots handle it, but it would mess them up very quickly, too.

But people work in coal mines and other toxic environments, too, so as long as people don't care and are able to make decent money, they're willing to trade years of their lives to do the job. They better have good insurance.

originally posted by: ArMaP.....I don't know if it was mentioned on the videos you posted (I didn't watch them), but the astronauts used that sideways jump way of walking because it was the easiest they came up with when they noticed that the joints in the suits were not as easy to bend with the pressure inside the suits and no pressure outside, so they used that method that didn't involve bending the knees. That was also one of the reasons they had difficulty getting up when they fell, it wasn't easy to bend the knees.

PS: I think you aren't giving enough importance to human ingenuity, when we have a problem to solve we can do it, and sometimes in ways nobody was expecting. Because of that I don't think it will be a problem for people to adapt to things like low gravity.

I have no problems with ingenuity, having three patents myself, but I guess I’m more of an optimist about our own planet and what can be done here or what’s left to be done here before going out there in space.

So I am a pessimist of doing things off world that may not be in our control. The farther we are away from earth, the potential for disasters will be far worse than the, (closer to earth), Challenger and Columbia tragedies had become. IMO, Murphy’s Law is Universal, but somehow worst in space. What’s the turn around time to send a rescue ship from earth to the Moon or earth to mars? Of course by the time the rescue ship arrives, it will probably be to late....

For all my postings, I’m sure I’m seen as an alarmist, cry wolf, the sky is falling, and other metaphors.... I don’t believe it should be all roses and no thorns. I do question the party line, cause and possible effects, trial by fire etc.

As it is, I am and continue to be a long time card carrying member of The Planetary Society. Then how could I be a #$&*@ about space? ..... I actually enjoy looking at the images of all things space and the beauty of it ....whether it’s artist’s renditions or actual. The hook for me to continue is because I see the wonders from the comfort of my naturally oxygenated home, I don’t have to risk my life to step foot on what I already see.

As for the suits, yes of course some problems may have been anticipated but only to what can be earth testable, that is to say i.e. bouncing hooked into Johnny jump ups, or submersed in water filled training (weightlessness simulation) tanks..... But the only way to know for sure was to actually use the suits on the real moon surface. No doubt, the ingenuity that came from that experience translated to improved suits over the years.... but once again, the true test of new suits, is the same as before, it will have to play out on the real moon surface.

SIDEBAR: The beauty of our own planet should never be substituted for any other planet in our solar system. With the advent of drones and drones technology..... the beauty of our planet has gotten even more beautiful and wondrous. The imagery and video of new places never before seen because of inaccessibility, that wall has come down. We are now able to see new landscapes of paradise on earth. How Majestic! It’s like being on another planet, but it’s our planet, created for us.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
We die. That's what happens. Easy come, easy go. Well, not me, specifically, because I'll probably already be dead. So it really is somebody else's problem.

However, we could always limit the population to optimum (not maximum) levels, and try to keep the Earth nice and clean and habitable. That could actually be easier than flying off for thousands of years to try and find another habitable planet we could live on without digging into the dirt like gophers.

But we'd have to get more organized than we are now.

thats harsh, who decides who lives and dies? who has a right to live? basically individual freedom must be denied in order for a government to maintain earths liveable environment. maybe the north koreans would get used to it pretty quick.

and it doesnt have to be a planet we can live on. space travel/exploration could bring new technology or discoveries perhaps even solutions to all our environmental problems.

I`m thinking that moon dust would not be worse than dust raised by hard rock mining here in the southwest especially gold mining in quartz.

originally posted by: Sunwolf
I`m thinking that moon dust would not be worse than dust raised by hard rock mining here in the southwest especially gold mining in quartz.

Well i guess that all depends on if the area of the Southwest where mining is done never gets rains or winds for over a millennia perhaps....

Here is one take on why moon dust could be worst than dust raised by hard rock mining.

“Lunar dust is fine, like a powder, but it cuts like glass. It’s formed when meteoroids crash on the moon’s surface, heating and pulverizing rocks and dirt, which contain silica and metals such as iron. Since there’s no wind or water to smooth rough edges, the tiny grains are sharp and jagged, and cling to nearly everything.”

Short Article The Mystery of Moon Dust

Source Link: www.newyorker.com...

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
“Lunar dust is fine, like a powder, but it cuts like glass. It’s formed when meteoroids crash on the moon’s surface, heating and pulverizing rocks and dirt, which contain silica and metals such as iron. Since there’s no wind or water to smooth rough edges, the tiny grains are sharp and jagged, and cling to nearly everything.”

"Nearly everything"? What doesn't it cling to?

originally posted by: choos
thats harsh, who decides who lives and dies? who has a right to live? basically individual freedom must be denied in order for a government to maintain earths liveable environment. maybe the north koreans would get used to it pretty quick.

It's not like our reproductive behaviors are not already heavily regulated. That's the primary purpose of religion. Some simple laws can be put in place, using technology to enforce them. I've always thought that a person should prove that they can afford and properly raise a child before they can have one, and that they should pass a training course. The same things we do so we can drive cars should probably already apply to bringing another human being into the world. So it won't be a matter of choosing who lives or dies, but more like having to prove you're not just causing more problems in a world with limited resources.

And as I've said elsewhere, the number one way of reducing birth rates is economic security. Birth rates have been steadily dropping in nearly all the more industrialized or post-industrial countries that have systems in place to take care of the elderly.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
“Lunar dust is fine, like a powder, but it cuts like glass. It’s formed when meteoroids crash on the moon’s surface, heating and pulverizing rocks and dirt, which contain silica and metals such as iron. Since there’s no wind or water to smooth rough edges, the tiny grains are sharp and jagged, and cling to nearly everything.”

"Nearly everything"? What doesn't it cling to?

I suppose it doesn't cling to hard or smooth surfaces like glass or plastic like those on a space suit helmet. However, if it carries a static charge, I imagine that it might still stick to those surfaces, but then come off when the astronaut grounds out the suit and takes the suit off -- creating a whole new set of horrendous cleaning problems.

Who lives Who dies .... an interesting association to dealing with the radiation and other hazards of space.

I have always thought of ... if lives are at risk, who would you send?

I have three groups in mind for now

For scientists and medical .... introverts who have not much more than their work and hobbies they do in solitude.

For the blue collar laborers .... ex-convicts, but trade rehabilitated (not hardened) who have nothing else to loose.

For the techies (includes Spacecraft flight crew) .... ex-submariners

Preferably all three groups would be made up of diverse “single” people without families and or friends. This would help to eliminate the complications of wanting to be reunited because of loneliness without other familiar humans or the planet earth itself... etc.

All three groups have the commonality of some sort of loneliness and isolation of sorts.

The introverts have the confines of their homes, the convicts have the confines of their cells, the submariners have the confines of their submarines. Each group spends long lengths of time away from the rest of the world and imo better mentally prepared for off world living when it comes to mental sanity and stability.

Of course if they live like that now, what’s the incentive to live among others you would naturally be apart from in some fashion? Those groups would have to have the same interests of space and adventure to consider that they will have to work together. Where as they might not have done that on earth.

So who lives and dies is solely on the person making the conscious decision to risk it all, even if all is almost nothing on earth right now.

For us on earth.... they would be given the added titles, as we give all our people who even now live and work in space. They are Hero’s both alive and dead already. Burying these volunteers, with contamination safety protocols in place, off world would be a matter of routine. No longer would words like “....and so (she or he) leaves behind so and so..” need to be part of the farewell. And who would remember them on earth if these volunteers have no ties, no attachments? They will be listed in honor rolls within the annals of NASA, or SpaceX, or Blue Origin, etc.... greater than a footnote in history or not being remembered at all if died on earth from the lives they have now.


SIDEBAR: What about the governing group and who makes up that group? Well, if any living off world has to be governed .... which is not germane to the topic of radiation and other hazards for this thread..... one thing is for certain imo, is that at least in terms of America, the founding fathers made the constitution applicable to America on earth... there’s no such thing of an American constitution applicable to all of space.... if anything a treaty of nations would attempt to template a micro government to be used in space for use by all those nations. Perhaps borrowing off of, some of, how the ISS is being operated.... Yes, I know...treaties are made to be broken. Well hopefully that’s not the case in space.

originally posted by: Arnie123
Perhaps building deep underground? Enough to mitigate any radiation?

Wouldn't have to bee too deep.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Arnie123
Perhaps building deep underground? Enough to mitigate any radiation?

Wouldn't have to bee too deep.

I guess they could always project high-resolution pictures on the walls of places where it's actually nice to live.

But at that point, why not just tell people that you've sent them to the Moon or Mars, but they just can't go outside? Build a little warren for them out in the desert where they can have all the annoyance of living on a different planet without actually having to go there.