It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

We Finally Know How Much Radiation There Is on The Moon, And It's Not Great News

page: 1
12
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 12:10 AM
link   
Dated 26 SEPTEMBER 2020

Source Link: www.sciencealert.com...

We Finally Know How Much Radiation There Is on The Moon, And It's Not Great News

.....”As the US prepares to return humans to the Moon this decade, one of the biggest dangers future astronauts will face is space radiation that can cause lasting health effects, from cataracts to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases.​

Though the Apollo missions of the 1960s and 1970s proved it was safe for people to spend a few days on the lunar surface, NASA did not take daily radiation measurements that would help scientists quantify just how long crews could stay.

This question was resolved Friday after a Chinese-German team published in the journal Science Advances the results of an experiment carried out by China's Chang'E 4 lander in 2019.

"The radiation of the Moon is between two and three times higher than what you have on the ISS (International Space Station)," co-author Robert Wimmer-Schweingruber, an astrophysicist at the University of Kiel told AFP.

"So that limits your stay to approximately two months on the surface of the Moon," he added, once the radiation exposure from the roughly week-long journey there, and week back, is taken into account.​

There are several sources of radiation exposure: galactic cosmic rays, sporadic solar particle events (for example from solar flares), and neutrons and gamma rays from interactions between space radiation and the lunar soil.

Radiation is measured using the unit sievert, which quantifies the amount absorbed by human tissues.

The team found that the radiation exposure on the Moon is 1,369 microsieverts per day - about 2.6 times higher than the International Space Station crew's daily dose.

The reason for this is that the ISS is still partly shielded by the Earth's protective magnetic bubble, called the magnetosphere, which deflects most radiation from space.

Earth's atmosphere provides additional protection for humans on the surface, but we are more exposed the higher up we go.​

"The radiation levels we measured on the Moon are about 200 times higher than on the surface of the Earth and five to 10 times higher than on a flight from New York to Frankfurt," added Wimmer-Schweingruber.​

NASA is planning to bring humans to the Moon by 2024 under the Artemis mission and has said it has plans for a long term presence that would include astronauts working and living on the surface.

For Wimmer-Schweingruber there is one work-around if we want humans to spend more than two or three months: build habitats that are shielded from radiation by coating them with 80 centimeters (30 inches) of lunar soil.“....



Well where does that leave us.....do we still go? Do we haul up heavy construction equipment to build underground? Never mind the logistical support for an infrastructure operation let alone the size rockets and cargo bays to attempt such an effort.

Hmm..... it could be a scrap, much like pictured below. Living with ET on the Moon ain’t looking good.



Your going to need something better than the last tools used on the Moon....


edit on 27-9-2020 by Ophiuchus1 because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 12:17 AM
link   
Perhaps building deep underground? Enough to mitigate any radiation?



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 12:20 AM
link   
We don't live on the moon.

The only downside to this news, is lunar real estate speculation. That won't fare well.



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 12:25 AM
link   

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Well where does that leave us.....do we still go? Do we haul up heavy equipment to build underground?


It won't happen by 2024 but one idea I've seen is to possibly use the ancient lava tubes as underground habitats. They already exist underground, so you wouldn't have to construct them. All you might need to do is build an entrance/exit for when you want to venture to the surface, but that too may already exist with some lava tubes, which might already have openings to the surface.

You would just need to install something like a ladder in that case, but, some studies would be needed to find good sites and assess the safety. Some of the old lava tubes have collapsed, so you wouldn't want one that's about to collapse, but I suspect if they haven't collapsed by now, they are probably relatively stable, unless we start blasting or something.

Living in Lunar Lava Tubes

The possibility of using lava tubes as shelters was first proposed, to my knowledge, in 1985 by Fred Hörz in a NASA report about lunar bases. Besides outlining the advantages to using a natural shelter as a base, Hörz argues that there are probably a lot of lava tubes on the Moon, because they are thought to be related to sinuous rilles.


edit on 2020927 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:17 AM
link   
Humans might still go there for short visits.
Any type of mining or building operation is probably better done by robots anyway.



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:20 AM
link   

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Well where does that leave us.....do we still go? Do we haul up heavy equipment to build underground?


Living in Lunar Lava Tubes


From the link......

.....” Not being an engineer, I'm not sure that I can comment on the costs of surface versus subsurface habs. It does seem to make sense that using a natural, easily accessible shelter would help reduce costs.

However, it is important that the costs of accessing the geological shelter not exceed the costs of a surface shelter. There is a lot of discussion about whether it would be easy to access a lava tube from a skylight -- there would need to be some sort of elevator to carry people and materials to the floor. It is also not known whether a sufficient open space might be available near collapsed sections of lava tubes, as proposed in Coombs and Hawke.

However, most importantly, the finding of the skylight confirms that there are intact lava tubes on the Moon, so we can keep our planning options open.”....


See, it seems to me that as wonderful as it may theoretically be possible to build a habitat in a lava tube...... yet to be exercised here on earth as a training programs for astronauts, I suspect, it is much like the saying It’s Easier Said Then Done. The big picture always looks great on the drawing board in the executive boardroom..... but the Devil is still in the logistical details to pull it off.

In the quote it mentions an Elevator ...as if it’s no big thing for Astronauts to break a sweat digging into a skylight, and hauling all the equipment and materials and tools from how ever far they landed, to make an Elevator happen.....and that’s just one example.

An effort to make a livable habitat depends on many factors not yet overcomed even here on earth. Biosphere II is a nice boondoggle of a failure that comes to mind.

Where are the Freighter size, very large cargo bay rocket ships for hauling anything more than just a ladder to stick down a hole. I’m not seeing it.

Nice theoretical depiction below of lava tube living whether on moon or mars....



edit on 27-9-2020 by Ophiuchus1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:28 AM
link   
Well with falcon 9 and fAlcon heavy we could simply start with a dozen missions a year to get the materials, heavy equipment and telecomm gear in place. Boson dynamics is already selling consumer spot robots for 74,500 USD$ so Atlas will probably be ready for some of these assembly operations by then as we'll.

Man, its looking really cool be to be alive again! I get to share in that space exploration nostalgia watching as these events unfold with my family over the next decade. We try to watch as many live rocket launches as possible. Every now and then we get to see the streaks in the sky in the Eastern sky.

Space exploration is so fascinating.



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:29 AM
link   

originally posted by: tjocksteffe
Humans might still go there for short visits.
Any type of mining or building operation is probably better done by robots anyway.


Remember.... Robots in general here on earth...are parts dependent and they hate being near water and rain showers....something about electronics and water mixing. And also as of yet, there is not a 3D printer on earth that can replicate electronics components and ic chips, not to mention pressurized pneumatic and fluid components to repair themselves 😉
edit on 27-9-2020 by Ophiuchus1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:30 AM
link   
 


off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:39 AM
link   
a reply to: Ophiuchus1
There would certainly be a lot of details to work out, but I think it might be possible to find open space next to a collapsed section.

Yes the link says elevator, but notice I mentioned ladder. They could bring ladder sections maybe with 3-4 rungs each which could be bolted or otherwise attached together, some assembly required.

I was pretty amazed they managed to figure out a way to attach a lunar rover to the tiny lander in the later Apollo missions, so they could certainly bring some ladder sections if they can bring a car.

I agree the elevator sounds ambitious, but that's probably more like 2100 thinking than 2030 thinking, and who knows what kind of lift vehicles might exist by 2100?



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:45 AM
link   
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Iirc there are folks working on an ISS 2.0 ?? Or did that never go anywhere??? Either way, the atlas robot pre assembled can easily handle many of the tasks. We could drop ten in a solar collector or maybe a hydrogen fuel cell base station. No water so that's a plus. But we only activate and use a handful at a time, maybe 2-3. So if one fails, another unit or two can take it back to the station for a diagnostic (plug/wireless systems analyses) . i assume the live versions kf these bots will have easy plug and play parts systems for this environment.

Since the humans are doing all the work from Earth thanks to all the telecomm gear, we can habe a redundancyvsystem in place and a small shuttle of some kind can ferry damaged units to the space station for more intricate hands on repairs.

Holy # man I'm tweaking with excitement at the thought of watching that first robot repair mission on a space station! I'm only thirty-ish so even if this take another thirty years I will still be kicking to see it go down.

Good thing I'm a problem solver. I just have everyone the plan. All the companiea have to do now is judt pay for the stuff they have already developed. Even caterpillar has remote operated construction equipment.



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:48 AM
link   
lmfao.
none of these 60s moon missions went to the actual moon.

kubrick shot them on a soundstage.



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 01:50 AM
link   
And they banned lead paints
Nobody thought they will need tons of it in Moon

edit on 27-9-2020 by Kenzo because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 02:25 AM
link   
To build a radiation free Muskonia...for example




We are going to need something this BIG....packed to the rafters in materials, equipment, and life support supplies, including lead paint 😉


edit on 27-9-2020 by Ophiuchus1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 02:38 AM
link   
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Life support is the very last stuff you send . Even the simplest of complexes barely havjng the same cubic footage as the space station will take years before any long term manned presence will even be possible. Just let the robots do their thing. We can enjoy checking in on their progress between our leisure time doing typical earth living. Nobody claimed this will happen swiftly.

The 2024 is nothing more than a. Public relations event to say "hey everybody, we got our boys there again!"
I canmot imagine that every rocket launch lately is only sending satellites. For all we know equipment is already being delivered discreetly as some obscure line item in the appropriations budget.

Space force is currently operating out of Qatar for their first deployment. Perhaps they are also assessing the situation??



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 03:08 AM
link   
We have to physically go, initially, to set up the important infrastructure that is required. After that, there would probably be no need to be there. Engineers can be on 10 to 20 day rotations initially, so they are not over exposed.

We will build underground, it only makes sense for the people that have to go occasionally, and for the storage of machinery and food. We will attempt to manufacture anything that we can, to avoid the costly imports from Earth.

We will set up a robotic presence that can upgrade itself as technology increases. All that will now be required, is guidance from Earth. We can be in cushy rooms, with better optics that we could have there, and all of the capabilities to explore, mine and of course... defend our property, remotely.

It will be the gateway required to explore the rest of the solar system and beyond.

Incredible times ahead !




edit on 27-9-2020 by charlyv because: spelling , where caught



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 09:38 AM
link   
In addition to the reality of high rates of radiation on the moon as the new study claims....

Let’s add in the other reality of moon dust and it’s affects:

(yes, I am aware that Wiki is not a scholarly source for some and it’s edible by most anyone)

Source Link: en.m.wikipedia.org...

.....” Harmful effects of lunar dust

A 2005 NASA study listed 20 risks that required further study before humans should commit to a human Mars expedition, and ranked "dust" as the #1 challenge. The report urged study of its mechanical properties, corrosiveness, grittiness, and effect on electrical systems. Most scientists think the only way to answer the questions definitively is by returning samples of Martian soil and rock to Earth well before launching any astronauts.

Although that report addressed Martian dust, the concerns are equally valid concerning lunar dust. The dust found on the lunar surface could cause harmful effects on any human outpost technology and crew members:

Darkening of surfaces, leading to a considerable increase in radiative heat transfer;

Abrasive nature of the dust particles may rub and wear down surfaces through friction;

Negative effect on coatings used on gaskets to seal equipment from space, optical lenses, solar panels, and windows as well as wiring;

Possible damage to an astronaut's lungs, nervous, and cardiovascular systems;

Possible increased risk of spacesuit arcing due to small dust grains' exposure to the space environment. The principles of astronautical hygiene should be used to assess the risks of exposure to lunar dust during exploration on the Moon's surface and thereby determine the most appropriate measures to control exposure. These may include removing the spacesuit in a three-stage airlock, "vacuuming" the suit with a magnet before removal, and using local exhaust ventilation with a high–efficiency particulate filter to remove dust from the spacecraft's atmosphere.

The harmful properties of lunar dust are not well known. However, based on studies of dust found on Earth, it is expected that exposure to lunar dust will result in greater risks to health both from direct exposure (acute) and if exposure is over time (chronic). This is because lunar dust is more chemically reactive and has larger surface areas composed of sharper jagged edges than Earth dust. If the chemical reactive particles are deposited in the lungs, they may cause respiratory disease. Long-term exposure to the dust may cause a more serious respiratory disease similar to silicosis. During lunar exploration, the astronauts' spacesuits will become contaminated with lunar dust. The dust will be released into the atmosphere when the suits are removed. The methods used to mitigate exposure will include providing high air recirculation rates in the airlock, the use of a "Double Shell Spacesuit", the use of dust shields, the use of high–grade magnetic separation, and the use of solar flux to sinter and melt the regolith.”....


Can anyone say that the above hazards have been totally resolved yet?

Is there a “good to go” check mark, point by point, fix for everything so far listed? Surly all of these are being worked on since being identified... hmmm Yes or No?

The rest of that wiki page and it’s sourced links is interesting.... interesting enough for me to suspect, we are no where ready in the near future for habitations on the moon let alone on mars.

By the way..... where is the Alien help on this? Where is the welcome to the moon greetings and the manuals or instructions data “Habitat’s for Humans” from the Aliens. Surly, if they are there and have been there for the longest time, then they would have worked out some of the issues.


SIDEBAR: Ya know.... why do we have always regard Aliens as being “advanced” there has got to be “dumb” aliens as well. We say they are advanced because they fly in fancy ships.... would the driver/pilot of these craft be no more advanced then being there versions of airline pilots, bus drivers, taxi drivers etc. I don’t get it.... the operator of a saucer may know how to fly his A$$ off... but on home world, couldn’t boil an egg. Why is everybody or everything not from earth “advanced” .... we are calling ourselves, by that reasoning, the dumb planet earth of the universe.

edit on 27-9-2020 by Ophiuchus1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 10:30 AM
link   

originally posted by: dantanna
lmfao.
none of these 60s moon missions went to the actual moon.

kubrick shot them on a soundstage.


LOL, I love you guys... I mean, I'm glad you are not running anything important, or scientific, but I find wholesome child-like ignorance, is still a nice quality in these troubled times. Makes me smile and reminds me of the wonder of youth. 😁



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 11:39 AM
link   
of all the space men!
only one died from cancer.
and i bet he got That on earth!

so its safe to go to the moon !



posted on Sep, 27 2020 @ 11:42 AM
link   
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I"m no expert certainly but this seems simple to me.

There was a time on this planet where no one cared about living out in space. Space was just a dome that spun around us while we lived our lives here.

But once it became known that this Earth was just a small ball in a much larger system and those with enough comprehension to calculate the increases in our populations and the limits of our resources, the notion of leaving here for space took on a kind of dream of a future not subject to the limits of our single planetary existence.

That dream has lived on and on from early sci/fi authors and scientists who kept pushing that idea of us going to the stars. The moon first then Mars and on out into the rest of the system.

We would build this great space station that would serve as a launch point for that expansion to the moon. But where is that station. The ISS is ok I guess for experiments and observations and all but as a launching platform for moving on to the moon? Not being an expert I seriously doubt it.

And really what does the moon have to offer other than just one step in that dream that has allowed us to keep on with our toss away culture that will be solved when we reach the rest of the solar system. Bring back water from the Jovian moons or special minerals from the moon and other places.

Bosh. We ain't going anywhere. For one, it's not cost effective. The return on investment, a principle that is paramount to the system of commerce so beloved by most demands almost immediate returns. That ain't gonna come anytime soon. So, where are the long term investors. They would rather just find short term investments here to make their money.

And now this radiation that even more limits any possibility of lunar colonization.

Again, I"m no expert but to my mind, that dream has to die. I held it once, I read sci-fi all the time, from Heinlein writing about moon colonies and all the other cats who wrote back in the 50s and 60s and onward. But I have come to realize that that dream was made of hope and smoke and it ain't gonna happen.

Those finances and hopes need to be redirected to our planet alone. Figure out how to sustain our species right here. And do it fast.



new topics

top topics



 
12
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join