Signs of extraterrestrial life found on Venus - Massachusetts Institute of Technology

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: ArMaP
They basically are saying that they do not know of any non-biological process that can produce phosphine, so they assume it's from a biological source.

Obviously, it could be from a process they do not know, specially when we are talking about a planet we know very little about, like Venus.

Interesting, nonetheless.

Well, these researchers are grossly ignorant, phosphine CAN be easily produced by NON-biological processes:

- Over 200 years ago, Philippe Gengembre first obtained phosphine by heating phosphorus in an aqueous solution of potash (potassium carbonate).

smh.....

"In a lab"

Phosphine is only produced naturally from biological life.......or........in a lab.

originally posted by: jidnum

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: ArMaP
They basically are saying that they do not know of any non-biological process that can produce phosphine, so they assume it's from a biological source.

Obviously, it could be from a process they do not know, specially when we are talking about a planet we know very little about, like Venus.

Interesting, nonetheless.

Well, these researchers are grossly ignorant, phosphine CAN be easily produced by NON-biological processes:

- Over 200 years ago, Philippe Gengembre first obtained phosphine by heating phosphorus in an aqueous solution of potash (potassium carbonate).

smh.....

"In a lab"

Phosphine is only produced naturally from biological life.......or........in a lab.

In a lab...on Earth. Biomarker on Earth. Elsewhere may not need a lab or bio activity.
Given that sulfuric acid exists in the Venusian atmosphere and likely phosphate rocks exist on the surface. A simple reaction producing phosphoric acid is a likely outcome. Phosphoric acid has a much lower boiling point/higher vapor pressure than sulfuric acid so it is likely that it is also in the atmosphere. The atmosphere has pressure and temperature gradients along with other compounds that will exist in a series of complex equilibria that transition as the atmosphere becomes less dense and cools further from the planet. Phosphine has a mass of about 34 Daltons and is less dense than CO2, so one would expect to find it in the upper atmosphere along with other low MW compounds. If, for example, phosphorus acid was an atmospheric component in this soup, it is known to disproportionate to phosphoric acid and phosphine at around 200 C.
This excitement reminds me of invoking the possibility of an alien Dyson sphere/Ringworld when variations in light output from a star could not be readily explained.

a reply to: Planetarian

S+F! And finally some great news in a year that was mostly dominated by apocalyptic headlines.

Meanwhile, someone is probably already preparing a new thread:
"It Came From Outer Space! COVID-19 from Venus?"

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: jidnum

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: ArMaP
They basically are saying that they do not know of any non-biological process that can produce phosphine, so they assume it's from a biological source.

Obviously, it could be from a process they do not know, specially when we are talking about a planet we know very little about, like Venus.

Interesting, nonetheless.

Well, these researchers are grossly ignorant, phosphine CAN be easily produced by NON-biological processes:

- Over 200 years ago, Philippe Gengembre first obtained phosphine by heating phosphorus in an aqueous solution of potash (potassium carbonate).

smh.....

"In a lab"

Phosphine is only produced naturally from biological life.......or........in a lab.

In a lab...on Earth. Biomarker on Earth. Elsewhere may not need a lab or bio activity.
Given that sulfuric acid exists in the Venusian atmosphere and likely phosphate rocks exist on the surface. A simple reaction producing phosphoric acid is a likely outcome. Phosphoric acid has a much lower boiling point/higher vapor pressure than sulfuric acid so it is likely that it is also in the atmosphere. The atmosphere has pressure and temperature gradients along with other compounds that will exist in a series of complex equilibria that transition as the atmosphere becomes less dense and cools further from the planet. Phosphine has a mass of about 34 Daltons and is less dense than CO2, so one would expect to find it in the upper atmosphere along with other low MW compounds. If, for example, phosphorus acid was an atmospheric component in this soup, it is known to disproportionate to phosphoric acid and phosphine at around 200 C.
This excitement reminds me of invoking the possibility of an alien Dyson sphere/Ringworld when variations in light output from a star could not be readily explained.

Thank you for a very interesting post. I believe you'll find that sulfuric acid droplets evaporate before they can reach an altitude of less than 25 kilometers above the surface of the planet Venus. For this reason, one would not expect them to reach the surface, nor react with phosphate rocks or any other sources of phosphorus there.

originally posted by: jeep3r
a reply to: Planetarian

S+F! And finally some great news in a year that was mostly dominated by apocalyptic headlines.

Meanwhile, someone is probably already preparing a new thread:
"It Came From Outer Space! COVID-19 from Venus?"

Doom. Again, I guess. Getting used to it now.

I'd bet that it's from Earth bacteria brought by the many probes that visited Venus:

en.wikipedia.org...

I count 16 successful landers between 1965 and 1985, and I'm not sure how many of the failures made it to the atmosphere and/or surface. They've had plenty of time to multiply on their very own planet.

And it is most likely Soviet bacteria, comrades!

Earth bacteria can survive only in much less acidic environments than is present in Venus' upper atmosphere. Even if Earth-based probes carried some of our own bacteria there, they would have been dead long ago. They would not be producing phosphine gas by their metabolism. A currently active source of the gas is indicated. Phosphine would be destroyed,oxidized in short order, by the sulfuric acid also found in Venus' upper atmosphere.

originally posted by: Ross 54

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: jidnum

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: ArMaP
They basically are saying that they do not know of any non-biological process that can produce phosphine, so they assume it's from a biological source.

Obviously, it could be from a process they do not know, specially when we are talking about a planet we know very little about, like Venus.

Interesting, nonetheless.

Well, these researchers are grossly ignorant, phosphine CAN be easily produced by NON-biological processes:

- Over 200 years ago, Philippe Gengembre first obtained phosphine by heating phosphorus in an aqueous solution of potash (potassium carbonate).

smh.....

"In a lab"

Phosphine is only produced naturally from biological life.......or........in a lab.

In a lab...on Earth. Biomarker on Earth. Elsewhere may not need a lab or bio activity.
Given that sulfuric acid exists in the Venusian atmosphere and likely phosphate rocks exist on the surface. A simple reaction producing phosphoric acid is a likely outcome. Phosphoric acid has a much lower boiling point/higher vapor pressure than sulfuric acid so it is likely that it is also in the atmosphere. The atmosphere has pressure and temperature gradients along with other compounds that will exist in a series of complex equilibria that transition as the atmosphere becomes less dense and cools further from the planet. Phosphine has a mass of about 34 Daltons and is less dense than CO2, so one would expect to find it in the upper atmosphere along with other low MW compounds. If, for example, phosphorus acid was an atmospheric component in this soup, it is known to disproportionate to phosphoric acid and phosphine at around 200 C.
This excitement reminds me of invoking the possibility of an alien Dyson sphere/Ringworld when variations in light output from a star could not be readily explained.

Thank you for a very interesting post. I believe you'll find that sulfuric acid droplets evaporate before they can reach an altitude of less than 25 kilometers above the surface of the planet Venus. For this reason, one would not expect them to reach the surface, nor react with phosphate rocks or any other sources of phosphorus there.

At those temperatures one would expect the H2SO4 vapor to be in equilibrium with H2O and SO3 and SO3 to be in equilibrium with SO2 and O2. Amounts would depend on partial pressures at altitude. One can go on and find other equilibria but at the temperatures and pressures of the surface, gas-solid reactions are possible. It may even be possible for elemental P to exist but I have not done those guesstimates.

originally posted by: Ross 54
Earth bacteria can survive only in much less acidic environments than is present in Venus' upper atmosphere. Even if Earth-based probes carried some of our own bacteria there, they would have been dead long ago. They would not be producing phosphine gas by their metabolism. A currently active source of the gas is indicated. Phosphine would be destroyed,oxidized in short order, by the sulfuric acid also found in Venus' upper atmosphere.

Apparently not! The gas wasn't there before, and now it is.

We basically didn't know much of anything about extremophile bacteria back when the probes were being sent and we still don't know all there is to know. Any bacteria landing on Venus was already by evolutionary process selected for surviving the space journey through vacuum, radiation, extreme temps, etc.

I really think it's far more likely that some bacteria we sent survived and thrived by evolutionary process over the last 35-55 years than some other life on Venus came into existence over billions of years and only just now began to produce detectable phosphine when it wasn't there between ~1965 and 1985.

I mean they've got a whole planet to work with. Once they hit a configuration that thrived, there would be no competition whatsoever to slow them down, and they've been at it for ~35-55 years!

There are also less extreme environments on Venus. There are places in the highlands that approach Earth like temperatures. But then again I think it's more likely these little buggers somehow succeeded in the cauldron at the surface level first. Once they got going there, they could in theory evolve into any niche Venus had to offer.

a reply to: 11andrew34

The gas wasn't there before, and now it is.

Wasn't there before what? Before it was looked for?

There are places in the highlands that approach Earth like temperatures.

No. Just no. The highest mountain on Venus is about 8.8 km. At 8.8 km the temperature is about 600ºK. That is not Earth like, that is 326º C. Organic stuff doesn't do well at those temperatures.
www.lpl.arizona.edu...

a reply to: Rob808

Academia is more educated on this topic than both of us.

I prefer the information of experts, rather than the uneducated opinion of laymen.

Unless you can show your credentials in the field of astrobiology?

The pressure and temperature of Venus’ upper atmosphere (50-65 km) is the most Earth-like in the solar system. Much, much better than Mars.

Clearly its these microbes flying the tic tac ufo's

Clearly aliens are harvesting noble gases from their spaceship and the Phosphine we detected are from the exhaust emissions.

i'm joking of course but I do know that Venus once had life and now it doesn't. There is no life on Venus.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Its aphrodite, shes a God

Have I stated any facts that are inaccurate? Have I stated anything that requires any set of specific credentials? You can be upset I raised a good point you can’t disprove. It’s cute you lean on authority to do the thinking for you but I prefer to rely on my own critical thinking skills. I’m not disagreeing with the article unless you want to point out where? I’m simply pointing out where it goes from fact to opinion, sorry I’ve ruffled your world view by thinking myself.

The opinion of and factual information by the academic world are hardly equitably, can you not see the difference?

Also, your assumptions about my opinions being uneducated only speak of your small world view.
a reply to: cenpuppie

I was hoping that this was gonna be "proof" at least of bacteria being able to survive such harsh places as Venus. But this is evidence that suggests something, and is not "proof". To me it is more likely that this is caused by some unknown natural process than as a byproduct of microbial life.

While this isn't quite a nothingburger, it is far from definitive in any way shape or form as well.

a reply to: Planetarian

Seems to be signs of life (either presently or at one point) in every celestial sphere we visit. So much for life on earth just being some freak accident, huh?

a reply to: LoneCloudHopper2

As long as the signs are only signs that can be from either life or other chemical processes not resulting from the existence of life we are kept in doubt and waiting for the real evidence.

Up to now that hasn't appeared, so there isn't any evidence that life on Earth is not an unique situation.

a reply to: JimOberg
Luckily science tries to be more open minded to other possibilities that life may flourish in more than one frequency somewhere maybe beyond the red green and blue..