Canada lets Muslim off on a "real" hate crime

Originally posted by DrHoracidHere you go again.............no I don't believe in "hate" speech. That's PC bull...........I do believe in watching such people because its all about "fundraising"...................

Yet you spew enough of it. If you do not see your own as hate speech, why on earth would this Islamic leader see his as such?

Therapist eh? As in psychiatrist or psychologist? I stated before that you either post for shock value or because of something more deep and dark within your mindset. It might be true what they say about members of those two professions.

Moslems working it

Originally posted by DrHoracid
So someone tell how this guy hasn't violated the following

Section 319(1): Public Incitement of Hatred

The crime of "publicly inciting hatred" has four main elements. To contravene the Code, a person must:

communicate statements,
in a public place,
incite hatred against an identifiable group,
in such a way that there will likely be a breach of the peace.
Under section 319, "communicating" includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; a "public place" is one to which the public has access by right or invitation, express or implied; and "statements" means words (spoken, written or recorded), gestures, and signs or other visible representations.

All the above elements must be proven for a court to find an accused guilty of either:

an indictable offence, for which the punishment is imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
an offence punishable on summary conviction.

www.media-awareness.ca...

It certainly is odd that a fellow who has no tolerance or even small like for Canada and Canadians would venture up here to make his living, and I do not fall for it being that he would gladly take our money.

It looks like horacid uses the internet to vent his hate, for no doubt if he actually does have anything to do with U of A, once he crosses the border he very likely leaves his hate speech on his keyboard, shuts up and and sucks up to the faculty and students. To believe otherwise is to believe that he could actually stomach working with some of the U of A mechanical engineering faculty, or that they would tolerate him.

Amit Kumar,
Amjad Ababneh
Subir Bhattacharjee
Amirfazli, Alidad
Moussa, Walied
Rahimi, Payam

Nothingtolose,

pretty lame Photoshop work on that photo.

Could at least give it 10 instead of 5 minutes work!

Are you the doctors new ASSistant?

Or just a random mental case?

As i recall he didn't say go out and kill any Isreali over 18. He merely stated a point of view of many Palestinians, not even his own opinion.

Technically speaking if you were at war with Israel then that view is correct since everyone over 18 is part of the military, making them military targets and not civilians.

And not to mention this:

He issued an apology soon after the public outcry began over the Oct. 19 show and said later he was trying to express the view of many Palestinians, not his own opinion.

Dr. Elmasry also offered to resign as president of the Canadian Islamic Congress, but the group's board of directors refused to accept it."

Wow, he apologized? Tried to express a view not of his own? Offered to resign? Lock him up and throw away the key before he incites more violence!

And one more thing "DR." i find it funny how someone cant call you a nazi because they "have no idea", yet you cross the border, watch your FOX "news" and you think you know our country?! Give me a break, state your opinion and leave your propaganda at home.

Dr, thanks for printing the appropriate Canadian law on this issue, since even the Canadians posting on this board seem to be ignorant of what it actually says.

Here's a further clarification of the issue using the text from the law:

Section 319(1): Public Incitement of Hatred

The crime of "publicly inciting hatred" has four main elements. To contravene the Code, a person must:

communicate statements, comments by Dr. Mohamed Elmasry
in a public place, Dr. Elmasry made the comments on the Michael Coren Show
incite hatred against an identifiable group, all adult Israelis
in such a way that there will likely be a breach of the peace. are "legitimate targets" for Palestinian terrorists
Under section 319, "communicating" includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; a "public place" is one to which the public has access by right or invitation, express or implied; and "statements" means words (spoken, written or recorded), gestures, and signs or other visible representations.

All the above elements must be proven for a court to find an accused guilty of either: an indictable offence, for which the punishment is imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or an offence punishable on summary conviction.

All you people can rant and rave all you want about whether you agree with the Dr. on his beliefs, etc. I also have to say that I disagree in principle with laws that try to censor free speech. However, under this Canadian law, I think I just showed why this person's actions met the test of this law and why he should have been charged.

The only way you can legitimately try to refute what I've written would be to try and say that:
1 - Dr. Mohamed Elmasry did not make the comments - he did
2 - Dr. Mohamed Elmasry did not make the comments in a public place - he did on the Michael Coren Show
3 - all adult Israelis does not constitute an identifiable group - the preceding statement identifies them as a group
4 - saying "all adult Israelis are "legitimate targets" for Palestinian terrorists is not likely to lead to a breach of the peace - when any radical muslim could take this statement as the 'go ahead' for taking action

Regarding the apology, everyone understands that it's 'very difficult' to "unring the bell".

Case closed.

As to why the Canadian authorities declined to prosecute when they clearly had cause under their law, one can only speculate. I would offer some words of caution to the Canadians, "Be very careful how far you bend over to appease these radicals. Unless you want to end up serving the same role as the sheep and goats of their native lands."


[edit on 3/16/2005 by centurion1211]

This guy was talking about palestine, he was not inciting hatred against anyone who lives in CANADA, I think that is why he doesn't fall under the hate crime law thingy. And besides he was not stating his opinion or saying "I want everyone now to go and kill here in Canada" , he said how palestinians view the situation there in Palestine/Israel.

So, it is not hate speech, as defined by canadian law.

Check out this CNN news story for another example of Canada going soft on terrorism.

News Story

Originally posted by AceOfBase
According to Horacid, people like Ann Coulter, John Gibson, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage and others should be arrested for hate crimes.
Heck, maybe even the good Dr himself could be brought up on hate crime charges for all of his anti-Muslim comments.

It's only a hate-crime when someone speaks of bringing harm against the U.S. or Israel!

Everyone else is legitimate targets!

It's like this: Canada's got it all backwards!

You intrigue me. So what's your position within live and let live, ie no berka..

Dallas

Originally posted by centurion1211
Check out this CNN news story for another example of Canada going soft on terrorism.

News Story

This Air India acquittal I agree is tragic, made even more so by the bungled investigation. However, the subject of this post was rightfully acquitted, for the biased news spin failed to present the transcript of this talk show. It was after all a talk show where he was being asked questions, and horacid's post as well as the poster who decided he was a lawyer, was biased, shortsighted and lacking in full disclosure. And I have to tell you, Coren himself is no angel when it comes to slamming others with his own opinions.

The transcript was not disclosed, nor did he suggest that Israelis of any sort be killed, he simply stated and qualified Palestinian view of who was an eligible target. By Canadian law, his statement was neither false, nor meant to incite.

Now I recall a thread where Americans bashed Canada for suppressing Zundel by proclaiming America's free speech laws superior to 'backwards' Canada.

So which is it then, how we can be wrong by suppressing Zundel and also wrong for not suppressing this man? It would be a great achievement if you could make up your minds and remain static on a point of view, or is it that laws only matter to you when you want them to matter?

The different judicial and police groups working on Air India got into a big power struggle, and refused to help each other, and even sabotaging each others work, from what I read, resulting in a poor case that cost millions.
As for Canada being so bad at opposing terrorism, and so weak, which is what I hear, I offer some historical episodes that may shed light on why.

Africville
The Japanese/Canadian concentration camp internments and property expropriations.
The refusal to admit German Jews, around WWII, sending them back to the Nazis.
The $500 head tax on chinese immigrants.
the refusal to let in a shipload of Sikhs, in BC, for no good reason.
The anti Semitic policies, such as beach signs in Vancouver that read 'No dogs or Jews allowed.'
The support of Indonesia when it invaded East Timor in a bloody takeover.
The treatment of the First Nations people.
I offer these subjects of study for some balance....Canada was not always so lovey dovey. Personally, lovey dovey is far preferable to me.

[edit on 3/16/2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

centurion1211 said everything I wanted to say, but probably better. My Mom lives in Montreal......a socialist paradise that makes San Francisco look like Dallas,Texas.

She told me the only thing that really unites Candians is their Hatred for America. Im not surprised Canada allows these kinda of threats towards Jews, I almost expect it now-a-days, but if a White man made these threats against an Arab or Asian person in Canada...he would be locked up faster that you can say "Allah Akbar"

Maximu§

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The different judicial and police groups working on Air India got into a big power struggle, and refused to help each other, and even sabotaging each others work, from what I read, resulting in a poor case that cost millions.
As for Canada being so bad at opposing terrorism, and so weak, which is what I hear, I offer some historical episodes that may shed light on why.

Africville
The Japanese/Canadian concentration camp internments and property expropriations.
The refusal to admit German Jews, around WWII, sending them back to the Nazis.
The $500 head tax on chinese immigrants.
the refusal to let in a shipload of Sikhs, in BC, for no good reason.
The anti Semitic policies, such as beach signs in Vancouver that read 'No dogs or Jews allowed.'
The support of Indonesia when it invaded East Timor in a bloody takeover.
The treatment of the First Nations people.

while i don't agree with a lot of these things canada has done lets take a bit of a look at them.

the japanese internment camps/property takeing-this at first galnce seems to be a bad move on the whole. now the seizeing of property was a move that should not have occured unless someone was proven to be under the employ of the japanese gov or working for them. the "interment camps to be honest were a product that resulted from fear of the mind set of the japanese culture with the emporer being devine in nature. that people reasonably (not realy reasonable but they thought so) they expected that the japanese would still blindly follow his orders. you must also keep in mind that the americans had the same policies. yes it was wrongfuly done even tho the motive was a good one. the fact it was believed at the time that most japanese were still loyal to the homeland this was why people were scared i will agree that perhaps moveing them from coastal areas may have been a good idea the treatment that they recieved was not well done. (note the states did the same things and also did not treat their prisoners well).while there was no excuse the fear was very real this is a reason to gaurd against hate. i also wonder that as we were still a fledgling nation at the time still takeing orders from the british (wonder if we recieved orders about it?) also we must take in to the equasion the horrific way that japan treated her interns wonder if this may have been a bit of revenge on the japanese for this as well (we will probably never know).

the refusal of entry of the jews from the boat: i will point out that this boat went country to country being refused everywhere they went. i do believe that some were taken by both us and the us but am not sure of the facts about that. today that still happens with the fact that these are considered illigal imigration (ie: not following propper procedure to imigrate). now for 2 points no one at the time realized just how bad things were in germany at the time. even as the death camps were being liberated most of the world did not realize how bad things were thinking the stories made up to get sympathy. oops looks like most of the world was a bit blind but also keep in mind that the nazies did one hell of a good whitewashing job even going so far as to escort international red cross members through the ghettoes. no jew dared make a scean and so the red cross workers left feeling that things were ok and as far as they could see on par with what other countries were doing ( i would even go so far as to say the impression they may have had was that the jews were treated better than most countries in regaurds to internment). propaganda job nicely done on behalf of the geman propaganda machine.

the immigration tax on chinese: it is my understanding that this is typical in at least both the us and canada (most likely most countries) and affects most immagrants not just the chinese. is there a rate differance, probably, and is most likely reasoned out based on how much a person actualy has again i don't have enough info.

the refusal of a shipload of shikhs: again this is a case of preventing illigal immigration. the staes does simmmiler things every day as well. however strict or inane the rules of imigration are they should be followed. also the government has been know to take a brief look at the situation and will sometimes make alowances. just after 9-11 canada got blasted from the states about our "lax"immigration procedures. well our government tries hard but why say we have lax systoms on one hand then say we were too harsh not to accept a spacific group?

as for the no jews on beach sighn what year was that in? i could point out that the us was also guilty of simmiler stuff, remember no blacks alowed? i would hazzard a guess that other groups faced simmiler stuff. this is something that both countries have worked very hard to fix. in fact high park in toronto was originaly suppost to exclude all cathlics from entering within when it was willed to the city, this has since been fixed and i would hazzard a guess that most have forgotten that polocy even existed. it was not just about jews as some would have you believe but anyone seemed to be discriminated against at the whim of others.

i don't know anything about the east timmor thing so i can not say anything about it.

now for the treatment of our natives. first off that was mainly the british we were not a country at that time tho the canadian gov has not been overly fair since.oh yes the brittish even used biological warfare against the natives. (here take this to your people it is strong medacine, actualy smallpox not a cure for what ailed them). now we also tried to shelter the us natives from persecution arround the time of the moron custer i believe. i have heard that the us forces kept trying to send killers across the border to kill them even tho protected in a foren country. now as for the way treatys have been handled since canada became a country has been poor i know of one tribe that depending on what they want will hear from the government either "you never sighned a treaty" or " such and such tribe sighned a treaty for you".you want my oppinion? well for one to my knowledge the treaties were between the natives and brittish not canada and therefore how can canada be responsible for them? the fairest thing i can think of is just void them, along with the special rights given to the french ( who don't seem to want to stay a part of canada anyway sadly). the natives should own the land they have and be real citizens of this nation. this whole treaty thing keeps comeing up again and again lets start with a clean slate. yes the natives should still keep thier traditions that is only right .

just get over the past just as people should just get over slavery and the holocaust. yes evil and bad things were done. no we should never forget that would just make it easy to happen again. but I DID NOT own slaves, who still liveing has who is from north america? no one to my knowledge( if there are man would they be old), for the halocaust, most are truely sorry it was alowed to happen it was a truely evil thing and should not be alowed again to happen. but STOP useing these things like a bat to beat down people who did not commit these offences.put evil deads done in the far past behind you and live in the world as it is today. do not continue to say things to the effect of my life is screwed up because 100 years ago my great grand father was a slave. or every one hates jews just look at the holocaust. ( i use these as examples of what i have heard people say). do you hear the russions wailing on and on about the stalionist purges that killed millions? what about all the other groups that have been slaves thro the ages? or all those others hittler had killed for various reasons? and how many hear about the savage brutality from the japanese dureing ww2 that from what i have seen seems to be even more heines than any thing the germans did. think upon these things, hold them in your hearts so never to let happen again. but stop useing them as excuses and bashing others over the head with them.

edited to define paragraph (aparently identations disapear in final form). i hope this makes it easyer to read

[edit on 17-3-2005 by drogo]

drogo,

I'd really love to read your post, but I can concentrate on it, I'm getting lost. Can you separate it into parahraphs, space it up a bit?




[edit on 17-3-2005 by parrhesia]

sorry i thought i did sepeate it into paragraophs but it seems i alway forget to ident (oops) i will try to edit idents in to correct this. my bad

Originally posted by drogo

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The different judicial and police groups working on Air India got into a big power struggle, and refused to help each other, and even sabotaging each others work, from what I read, resulting in a poor case that cost millions.
As for Canada being so bad at opposing terrorism, and so weak, which is what I hear, I offer some historical episodes that may shed light on why.

Africville
The Japanese/Canadian concentration camp internments and property expropriations.
The refusal to admit German Jews, around WWII, sending them back to the Nazis.
The $500 head tax on chinese immigrants.
the refusal to let in a shipload of Sikhs, in BC, for no good reason.
The anti Semitic policies, such as beach signs in Vancouver that read 'No dogs or Jews allowed.'
The support of Indonesia when it invaded East Timor in a bloody takeover.
The treatment of the First Nations people.

while i don't agree with a lot of these things canada has done lets take a bit of a look at them.

the japanese internment camps/property takeing-this at first galnce seems to be a bad move on the whole. now the seizeing of property was a move that should not have occured unless someone was proven to be under the employ of the japanese gov or working for them. the "interment camps to be honest were a product that resulted from fear of the mind set of the japanese culture with the emporer being devine in nature. that people reasonably (not realy reasonable but they thought so) they expected that the japanese would still blindly follow his orders. you must also keep in mind that the americans had the same policies. yes it was wrongfuly done even tho the motive was a good one. the fact it was believed at the time that most japanese were still loyal to the homeland this was why people were scared i will agree that perhaps moveing them from coastal areas may have been a good idea the treatment that they recieved was not well done. (note the states did the same things and also did not treat their prisoners well).while there was no excuse the fear was very real this is a reason to gaurd against hate. i also wonder that as we were still a fledgling nation at the time still takeing orders from the british (wonder if we recieved orders about it?) also we must take in to the equasion the horrific way that japan treated her interns wonder if this may have been a bit of revenge on the japanese for this as well (we will probably never know).

the refusal of entry of the jews from the boat: i will point out that this boat went country to country being refused everywhere they went. i do believe that some were taken by both us and the us but am not sure of the facts about that. today that still happens with the fact that these are considered illigal imigration (ie: not following propper procedure to imigrate). now for 2 points no one at the time realized just how bad things were in germany at the time. even as the death camps were being liberated most of the world did not realize how bad things were thinking the stories made up to get sympathy. oops looks like most of the world was a bit blind but also keep in mind that the nazies did one hell of a good whitewashing job even going so far as to escort international red cross members through the ghettoes. no jew dared make a scean and so the red cross workers left feeling that things were ok and as far as they could see on par with what other countries were doing ( i would even go so far as to say the impression they may have had was that the jews were treated better than most countries in regaurds to internment). propaganda job nicely done on behalf of the geman propaganda machine.

the immigration tax on chinese: it is my understanding that this is typical in at least both the us and canada (most likely most countries) and affects most immagrants not just the chinese. is there a rate differance, probably, and is most likely reasoned out based on how much a person actualy has again i don't have enough info.

the refusal of a shipload of shikhs: again this is a case of preventing illigal immigration. the staes does simmmiler things every day as well. however strict or inane the rules of imigration are they should be followed. also the government has been know to take a brief look at the situation and will sometimes make alowances. just after 9-11 canada got blasted from the states about our "lax"immigration procedures. well our government tries hard but why say we have lax systoms on one hand then say we were too harsh not to accept a spacific group?

as for the no jews on beach sighn what year was that in? i could point out that the us was also guilty of simmiler stuff, remember no blacks alowed? i would hazzard a guess that other groups faced simmiler stuff. this is something that both countries have worked very hard to fix. in fact high park in toronto was originaly suppost to exclude all cathlics from entering within when it was willed to the city, this has since been fixed and i would hazzard a guess that most have forgotten that polocy even existed. it was not just about jews as some would have you believe but anyone seemed to be discriminated against at the whim of others.

i don't know anything about the east timmor thing so i can not say anything about it.

now for the treatment of our natives. first off that was mainly the british we were not a country at that time tho the canadian gov has not been overly fair since.oh yes the brittish even used biological warfare against the natives. (here take this to your people it is strong medacine, actualy smallpox not a cure for what ailed them). now we also tried to shelter the us natives from persecution arround the time of the moron custer i believe. i have heard that the us forces kept trying to send killers across the border to kill them even tho protected in a foren country. now as for the way treatys have been handled since canada became a country has been poor i know of one tribe that depending on what they want will hear from the government either "you never sighned a treaty" or " such and such tribe sighned a treaty for you".you want my oppinion? well for one to my knowledge the treaties were between the natives and brittish not canada and therefore how can canada be responsible for them? the fairest thing i can think of is just void them, along with the special rights given to the french ( who don't seem to want to stay a part of canada anyway sadly). the natives should own the land they have and be real citizens of this nation. this whole treaty thing keeps comeing up again and again lets start with a clean slate. yes the natives should still keep thier traditions that is only right .

just get over the past just as people should just get over slavery and the holocaust. yes evil and bad things were done. no we should never forget that would just make it easy to happen again. but I DID NOT own slaves, who still liveing has who is from north america? no one to my knowledge( if there are man would they be old), for the halocaust, most are truely sorry it was alowed to happen it was a truely evil thing and should not be alowed again to happen. but STOP useing these things like a bat to beat down people who did not commit these offences.put evil deads done in the far past behind you and live in the world as it is today. do not continue to say things to the effect of my life is screwed up because 100 years ago my great grand father was a slave. or every one hates jews just look at the holocaust. ( i use these as examples of what i have heard people say). do you hear the russions wailing on and on about the stalionist purges that killed millions? what about all the other groups that have been slaves thro the ages? or all those others hittler had killed for various reasons? and how many hear about the savage brutality from the japanese dureing ww2 that from what i have seen seems to be even more heines than any thing the germans did. think upon these things, hold them in your hearts so never to let happen again. but stop useing them as excuses and bashing others over the head with them.

edited to define paragraph (aparently identations disapear in final form). i hope this makes it easyer to read

[edit on 17-3-2005 by drogo]

Okay, so you call them internment camps too....funny, that is what our local paper editted my letter to the editor from concentration camps to internment camps..... I say lets call it what we called it at the time, and quit changing history after the fact.
If the detainment and theft of property of the Japanese Canadians is able to be rationalized, then please explain why the German Canadians were left alone? Please offer an opinion on that for me.
And the German Jewish refugees, you offer that they were turned away everywhere, cuz no one thought it was quite so bad back in Naziland....
okey dokey, that reminds me of Shultzie on Hogans Heroes, "I see nothing!!!"
Come on, two wrongs don't make a right, and I just don't buy the 'we didn't know' bs. they all hated Jews, that clear and simple was the case.
The beach signs in Vancouver, when? Before I was born anyway.
Again, you rationalize it away.

Africville?
And a new one for you. Residential schools. I guess the people my age, my friends, whose parents were sexually abused, murdered, and totally despised by the rest of Canadian society, they should just get over it?
Dream on.
Did you know that in WWII whole communities on the west coast died off cuz so many Native men volunteered to fight? The few who returned weren't even allowed into bars? Or the ones that allowed them, made them use a seperate door? Very grateful nation, huh?
Or my favorite, 1960, the year Natives were judged by Canada to be 'persons', and could actually vote. Ah, the humanity. Well, I guess its all better now, so we can just let bygones be bygones, eh? they won't mind if we dont pay them back for taking their land, culture, pride, and spirit from them? They will just heal up and be right as rain, ready to shake hands and forgive and forget. So what if his mom killed herself after being raped and ignored by employers for jobs, over and over, by white Canadian men, and her dad was buggered by the headmaster of the school that beat him for speaking his language, and let his sister die of tb, then buried her in the bushes out back, unmarked, and told no one.
You are right, they really should just forget about it. Then maybe the Canadian Native women can stop being the demographic with the lowest average income in the nation, and also maybe no longer will be grossly over represented in the working girls population on Vanc.'s downtown eastside.
So do you stand by your solution? Or have I given you food for thought that maybe the whole 'get over it' diatribe ain't gonna cut it?

One more point, you say stop using the crimes that our community perpetrated on them, grievously, and likely irreparably damaging their culture, as an excuse?
lol
You have it backwards.
You stop excusing our genocidal actions and trying to somehow say they are the ones who need to smarten up. How's that? We steal their land, try to kill them off, and when they call us on it, you say, quit complaining, and using that as an excuse!!!!
It is the other way around, they have the legitimate point. You are trying to keep the booty our parents killed their parents to steal. They ask for 5% of it back and you scream blue bloody murder, and try to shift the focus onto them, like they are in the wrong.
No!
We are.
Pay back is a bitch. And I will gladly sign on the line to give them back as much as we can. Cuz it will never, ever, in a thousand years repay the criminal actions they suffered from our forefathers, whether your dad or mine was actively doing it or not. They condoned it, they looked down on the Natives, and refused to hire them, insulted them, and laughed at their misery. I say pay them back all we can. The government of the day set those racist policies that charged chinese 500 and europeans 20 dollars based on race, and your dad and mine voted them into power.
And if the fact that the Japanese raped and pillaged the Chinese city of Nanking in an atrocious and coldblooded killing spree somehow has any bearing on what we did here, please explain that more clearly, cuz all I see is 'he hit me first', which went out of style in grade 5.

One final question.
In the old west, how did the reprehensible act of scalping originate? I asked my Native fiancee that, and she got it wrong. do you know? Few do, cuz of the media and educational systems misinformation machine, that loves to do the same thing I see here, blame the victim.
just get over it........priceless why didn't I think of that?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
One final question.
In the old west, how did the reprehensible act of scalping originate? I asked my Native fiancee that, and she got it wrong. do you know? Few do, cuz of the media and educational systems misinformation machine, that loves to do the same thing I see here, blame the victim.
just get over it........priceless why didn't I think of that?

Scalping was originated by the British during the French and Indian wars...

Until then the "Sue" tribe just cut the throats of their enemies. Hence the name 'sue" ...it means cut throat......