Tom Bombadil

Gothmog made a response in another thread, saying "You did not mention Bombadil could fend off the army of Mordor and Sauron himself.
Alone."

What a breath of fresh air for ATS! It got me thinking about Bombadil, which I haven't done in years.
Tolkien had this to say about Tom, "even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)".
Further, Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger considers Tom the antithesis to Sauron. Interesting, for a character who is a minor, though supremely interesting, part of the story. Ms. Flieger says that Tom, the master of earth, cannot be dominated because he lacks any desire to force his will upon anything else. All other inhabitants of Middle Earth have the pull to control- however small it may be, and that is what gives Sauron the "upper hand', so to speak.

So.... let us discuss Middle Earth.

a reply to: chelsdh

Interesting description of Bombadil compared to Sauron.
I hadn’t heard that before. As minor a character as he is, I alway liked how he seemed to be the very personification of the land.

Tom is older than the mountains.....
Rumored by some to be a Valar and at least equivalent in power to Melkor (Morgoth)
My money is on Bombadil being Lorien.


Folks concentrate on the original novels .
Most do not even know of the Silmarillion which was the first , yet the last.

a reply to: chelsdh

"He is a strange creature."
― Elrond, The Council of Elrond
The origins and nature of Tom Bombadil are unknown; however, he already existed when the Dark Lord came to Arda,[1] signifying he was alive even before the coming of the Valar.

His role and nature in the Elder Days is unknown, but he must have witnessed most of the major events and battles. He also witnessed the reducing of the great forests that covered all Middle-earth, and perhaps of his powers.[2]

The level of his interactions with the outside world is also unclear; however, he seemed to have names among many peoples and perhaps became a folkloric figure in the traditions and legends of Elves, Dwarves and Men.[2][3]

During the Third Age, Tom Bombadil lived in a little house by the river Withywindle in the Old Forest, together with his lovely wife Goldberry. He had contact with the Bucklanders[3] and Farmer Maggot, and perhaps it was this to which he owed his jolly and whimsical attitude.

However, since he was merry and benevolent, some of the Free Peoples considered him a potential ally (for example, Elrond and Erestor considered that he should be present at the Council of Elrond). However, according to Gandalf, Tom Bombadil was perhaps not fully aware of the struggle of Light and Darkness and could not prove useful to their causes.[2]

tolkiengateway.net...

a reply to: Gandalf77

the very personification of the land

The Genius Loci of that particular place.
The Old Forest which the group of Hobbits went into to escape the Dark Riders was still wild, untamed by the Hobbit town.

Tom can also be compared to the Ents of Fangorn Forest, and to a certain extent to Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlórien.

Tom though is probably the last living original genius loci of a place in Middle Earth. The Ents and Elves serve only a partial role, that of guardians and caretakers for specific forests.

a reply to: Gandalf77

I hadn't heard it before either.... until I decided to do this thread and delve into Tom a little more. It got my gears turning, a lot. It's a deep idea- that true freedom from domination is eliminating any desire to control. Was Tom created without any desire to dominate or did he develop it over time? I would think (and hope) that it was something he purged over time, which gives hope that others could evolve to be beyond the grasp of evil.

You did not mention Bombadil could fend off the army of Mordor and Sauron himself. Alone.

It does remind me of this story.

The Legend of Borry - Part One

a reply to: chelsdh

Was Tom created without any desire to dominate or did he develop it over time? I would think (and hope) that it was something he purged over time, which gives hope that others could evolve to be beyond the grasp of evil.

He has a wife you know. Together they had nothing to strive for or master.

We, on the other hand, must master things. Take driving to the store to buy groceries.

Driving must be mastered. Shopping must be mastered. The mutual cooperation and specialization necessary for all this must be mastered.
Road planners and engineers
Automobile designers and engineers
Architects and structural engineers
Agriculture and Horticulture specialists
Sowers and harvesters
Packers and boxers and stockers
Shoppers and cashiers

and the list goes on.
We must master cooperation.

a reply to: Gothmog
Yes, The Silmarillion gets forgotten. And while I haven't read all of it (yet), I know it is very rich and gives SO MUCH information.
I recently saw a reddit thread discussing how Tolkien "supposedly" told someone that the tales of Middle Earth were based on true history. Well, yes, I can see that, in a figurative way. But I don't think it is literal, no matter how much I wish so. However, I DO think that Tolkien was "tuned in" to the creative force when he came up with the creation story.

The Valar were the fourteen Ainur who, after being molded of Eru's thought, entered Arda after its creation, to give order to the world and combat the new evils of Melkor. They had helped to begin the shaping of Arda through the music of Ilúvatar, and often referred to one another as "brother" or "sister". Each of the Ainur had added his or her own part to the music creating the world incarnate, save for Melkor, who at the time was counted as the strongest of them. His vision of what Arda should have been differed from Eru's, which led to his banishment and great rebellion that would cause most of the ills of the world of Arda.

lotr.fandom.com...

I realize to a lot of people it sounds like rubbish, but it really makes sense to me and aligns well with my personal beliefs. Plus, he is such a gifted story teller, he makes it beautiful, though tragic.

originally posted by: chelsdh
Gothmog made a response in another thread, saying "You did not mention Bombadil could fend off the army of Mordor and Sauron himself.
Alone."

Take down the dark forces himself?

At the council of Elrond its mentioned that if Sauron regained the ring, Tom would be the last to fall. Also, that the power to defy the enemy is not within him.

Anyways, Tom is such a cool and enigmatic character. He plays such a small yet huge role in the Tolkien world.

a reply to: pthena
Yes, I remember that he had a wife.

We must master cooperation.

But can we? I like to think we can, for no one is born "perfect", and I think we have to strive for growth, and it is only through growth that we can attain being "masterless". If that even makes sense.

Note to anyone wanting to take offense- I am not talking about Jesus here, when I say no one is born "perfect". Neither am I referring to any Deity when I talk about being "masterless".

At the council of Elrond its mentioned that if Sauron regained the ring, Tom would be the last to fall. Also, that the power to defy the enemy is not within him.

a reply to: Tucket

That was the opinion of Glorfindel and Galdor. Not fact. But it may be correct. The power to defy Sauron may not have been strong enough, however the power of the ring held no sway over Tom- but what does that mean? Maybe he could have withstood the powers and be the only "free" being left?

Gothmog is right.
Tom's origins (and his wife, Goldberry) are indeed older than the mountains--the first race that came to Arda.

From the "Guide to Tolkien's World: A Bestiary," by Tolkien scholar David Day (p. 21):

"Many of the Ainur were counted among the Maiar, but only a few are named in the histories that have come down to Men:
Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, Ilmare, Maid of Varda, Osse, of the Waves; Uinen, of the Calm Seas; Melian, Queen of the Sindar; Arien the Sun; Tilion, the Moon; Sauron, the Sorcerer; Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs; and Olorin (Gandalf), Radagast and Curunir (Saruman) - the Wizards. In the histories of Middle-earth there also appear others who may have been Maiar: Thuringwethil, the Vampire; Ungoliant, the Spider; Draugluin, the Werewolf; Goldberry, the River-daughter; and Iarwain Ben-adar (Tom Bombadil)."

a reply to: pthena

Tom though is probably the last living original genius loci of a place in Middle Earth

That is so fun to think about. And why did he seem to not care about getting involved in the conflict? It wasn't cowardice. Perhaps it was more akin to when an old person is "ready to go"?

a reply to: chelsdh

I've heard some theories he is what Tolkien used as a character to put himself into the universe he created.

a reply to: Gandalf77

Are you sure you don't want to bring the staff down and claim the final say, Gandalf?

a reply to: strongfp

I can kinda see that, however, I don't feel like Tokien is hubristic enough to liken himself to a being that is "above" the touch of evil. To be fair though, I have never spoken with him about that, so I may be mistaken.

a reply to: kwakakev

Maybe add a warning for that. It was far from what I expected. But I did watch it all the way through.

a reply to: chelsdh

cannot be dominated because he lacks any desire to force his will upon anything else.

My wife has occasionally compared me to Tom Bombadil based on this trait. That is an interesting observation to have thrown at oneself.

I see Tom as an echo in a way of the song of creation since he loves to sing but we probably have to remember that Tolkien wrote the Hobbit as a story for his kids iirc and generally the more the books go one the darker it gets.