It just doesn't happen

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People


Humanity as a whole and individual humans can give themselves whatever meaning they choose. There doesn't need to be someone/something else forcing their own idea of meaning upon humanity.

If we are mutant monkey accidents then our conscious thing we call 'self' will return back to eternal nothingness and nothing we do will matter because the entirety of all humanity will inevitably join the same fate.

Will what humanity does matter to the universe as a whole? No. The length and breadth of humanity's existence is a virtually imperceptible infinitesimal when considering all of existence and the entire life of the universe.

But will what humans do with themselves and with their tiny speck of the universe they inhabit matter to humanity? Absolutely yes.

This is a horrid philosophy and it all stems from the inane belief that we intelligent organic supercomputers called humans are somehow random accidents derived from mutant pond goo.

How it is horrid? I'm saying that humanity itself has complete control over making our part of existence a better place. There is no other intelligent entity outside of humanity who has their own plan plans for us. We are totally free from any outside force to do whatever we can in order to make our existence better.

Will the rest of the universe care or even notice what humanity does? No, not at all. But why should that matter?

Looking at this idea on a smaller scale illustration, I'm free to make choices that hopefully will result in a better life for me and my family. But does that matter to some stranger living 10,000 miles away? No; they aren't aware that I exist so they don't care. However, their obliviousness to me or anything I do to make my part of existence better does not in any way mean that what I do does not matter to my existence.

Now take that idea and scale it up to humanity. What we do doesn't matter to the rest of the universe 10 billion LY away -- or matter even to whatever will be living on earth in 5 billion years when most of the signs that humanity ever existed is long gone. But why should we concern ourselves with them?

It's true that all of Humanity's existence may be a tiny speck of space taking place in a tiny instant of time, but that tiny existence is just as important to us as it would be if it were the entirety of all existence.

So yeah, what we do as monkeys matters immensely to our existence, even though we monkeys will someday be gone and forgotten by the universe.

a reply to: cooperton

Luckily to anyone who searches diligently enough, they will find there is no evidence for evolutionary theory,

Cite papers that endorse your position. There is ZERO evidence for your crap. "Search diligently"????? That's something you know absolutely nothing about. Because you're lazy, you're a liar and your cult stinks of corruption.

a reply to: cooperton
To say this complexity (God) does not require a designer is special pleading, so some try to back out of this problem by saying God is exempt because He’s eternal — His information just somehow always existed. But we could just as easily suggest that, “the Universe is what it is,” or “the Universe is existence itself.” And doing so would actually make much more sense, since the elements that make up the Universe lack the complexity and organization that is claimed to occupy the mind of God, and the Universe is not required to mysteriously exist in a supernatural realm, and it is not required to think, or somehow store complex information eternally without any known source or origin.

Now, it IS true that its simplicity CAN give rise to complexity, however, this is different from the Biblical God… unless we want to assume the Universe IS the simple God that gives rise to complexity, but I think most people prefer their God to be a little more intelligent. God operates with intent, the Universe does not.

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: toktaylor

So looking at the complexity of a single cell (www.youtube.com...) you think this all came together by accident/chance? To me that requires a much larger leap of faith than believing in a Creator.

What you see in that video is happening right now in the Trillions and Trillions of cells in your body. In the days when the theory of Evolution was developed they could not see that detail. Do you think they would have come to the same conclusions if they could view the details we see today?

I have never understood the argument between Evolution and Creation. I view them as one in the same. God's creative technique in Time and Space is Evolution. I think a better term is Progressive Evolution. Evolution is a technique that enables life to unfold and adapt to the given planetary environment. There are Trillions of inhabited planets in the universe and the mortal type of life must be able to adapt to the differing environments (gravity, temperature, atmosphere, etc)

We are a type of creation that must learn everything, must experience everything. We have plenty of examples on Earth of animals and insects that are born ready to go. Very little learning seems to be required. I am sure they do gain knowledge from actual experience but for the most part they are born fully developed for their life.

There are orders of beings, like Seraphim, who are created fully developed. They had no childhood, but they do gain knowledge from experience. For nothing can replace actual experience. To me it shows that if God wants/needs to create a fully developed being he can. We are not that type of being. We are meant to grow through our choices using our free will.

I think you should check out The Urantia Book (www.urantia.org...). Particularly the first 5 papers. They describe in great detail the nature and attributes of God (The Universal Father). IMO, all other religious texts give, at best, a meager description of God. How can you form an opinion of God without all of the info?

A lot of the people I have talked to about this base their concepts of God on a very small amount of information. They usually fall back to saying something like "if God exists, why all the suffering and evil in the world?". Its a fair question and The Urantia Book has a plausible explanation for that in my opinion.

I like to call out the below quote as part of the answer to that question.

This is from Paper 3, title The Attributes of God.

" The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of existence do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal sovereignty of God. All evolutionary creature life is beset by certain inevitabilities. Consider the following:

1. Is courage—strength of character—desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

2. Is altruism—service of one’s fellows—desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3. Is hope—the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

4. Is faith—the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

6. Is idealism—the approaching concept of the divine—desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

7. Is loyalty—devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

8. Is unselfishness—the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

9. Is pleasure—the satisfaction of happiness—desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities."

It appears the book of urantia is a training manual for knighthood, not a dissection of divine mechanics or an office address where you can make an appointment to meet the creatures who engineered such practices.

a reply to: carsforkids

it doesnt happen, but my superior IQ score feels threatened.

Nature's natural order is chaos. You are naive.

a reply to: toktaylor

The whole point of God vs evolution is that humans are supposed to be demigods who enjoy this elitist status in the hierarchy of the mortal world. The planet was made for us to own and to use and we are supposed to be training to serve an essential purpose in the court of the almighty, this life in this reality is just practice for what is planned after the apocalyptic genocide in revelations.

a reply to: TzarChasm
lol...source? and the other planets in this universe? and the other universes?

a reply to: cooperton
Given enough time (millions, billions of years), Hydrogen will begin to wonder where it came from.

originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: TzarChasm
lol...source? and the other planets in this universe? and the other universes?

Some book I was told to read for all my weird irrelevant questions.

a reply to: TzarChasm

There is a physical "address" for God. It's at the center of all things, but if you could somehow get transported there you would be no more aware of God's presence than you are now. We must spiritually progress quite a bit before we could "see" God.

The Urantia Book actually does have a lot of information on "divine mechanics" as you call it. There are many beings who help maintain the universe. God does not do all things, just like a CEO doesn't really run an entire business.

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: TzarChasm

There is a physical "address" for God. It's at the center of all things, but if you could somehow get transported there you would be no more aware of God's presence than you are now. We must spiritually progress quite a bit before we could "see" God.

The Urantia Book actually does have a lot of information on "divine mechanics" as you call it. There are many beings who help maintain the universe. God does not do all things, just like a CEO doesn't really run an entire business.

Given the quality of the urantia book, its literary composition and depth of subject matter, I'm surprised that the traditional bible hasn't been replaced as per the standard in most libraries and classrooms. More useful by far than the political drivel that defines the scriptures of the new testament.

a reply to: toktaylor

Something to consider. When one considers that virtually all forms of life depend on DNA to encode their genetic information, and that the encoding system is universally functional throughout all living forms, one cannot escape the conclusion that the origin of life is most certainly linked to the source of information. What is the source of information?

originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: cooperton
To say this complexity (God) does not require a designer is special pleading, so some try to back out of this problem by saying God is exempt because He’s eternal — His information just somehow always existed. But we could just as easily suggest that, “the Universe is what it is,” or “the Universe is existence itself.” And doing so would actually make much more sense, since the elements that make up the Universe lack the complexity and organization that is claimed to occupy the mind of God, and the Universe is not required to mysteriously exist in a supernatural realm, and it is not required to think, or somehow store complex information eternally without any known source or origin.

That is the explanation for God's transcendent existence, or at least as much as we can fathom at the moment. God always existed, and therefor did not need to be created or designed. In terms of the Universe just always existing, that doesn't really get us anywhere though, because unless the primordial Being is intelligent, then there can be no intelligible things made from the Primordial Being which you now call the Universe. The Universe is not indifferent, nor is it unintelligent, as we can tell by the cacophony of precise laws that keep everything in a stable equilibrium.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


If atheism is true and there is no higher purpose in life, then inevitably nothing you do matters. Even if you make the world a utopia it doesn't matter because soon all those inhabitants will return back to eternal nothingness with no memorable trace of any of it happening - which therefore means it has no enduring meaning whatsoever. I was an atheist very early on in my life and these notions caused me to face the abyss square in the eyes... it was a horrid feeling and I want everyone to know that atheism is absolutely unfounded due to the immense amount of Intelligence involved in the various physical laws that uphold the universe.

originally posted by: Phantom423

Cite papers that endorse your position. There is ZERO evidence for your crap. "Search diligently"????? That's something you know absolutely nothing about. Because you're lazy, you're a liar and your cult stinks of corruption.

Show one example of a population of organisms gradually changing into a distinct new organism. Otherwise stop wasting thread space. I'll save you time, there is no such experiment, because evolution is not observable even under meticulous artificial selection in a lab setting, which indicates it does not happen. Until then, you are simply believing based on faith. Faith in meaninglessness for that matter... so sad.

a reply to: cooperton
You may not like the truth...but fact doesn't care about your feelings. Many people are content with just life and existing now. 1000 years ago we did not exist and in another 1000 years we will not be. That is harsh reality

a reply to: cooperton
Finding purpose in this life should be everyone's ultimate goal. There is no spirit, that the truth is rather obvious: the brain is responsible for making a person who they are, and nothing else. This is why we have no recollection of existing before we had a body, and likely why we will have no recollection after our death. One day this Universe will discontinue to exist in it's current form for a few billion years, it does not exist for you or us we are just a by product like trees, mountains, the other animals, planets, starts, galaxies.

One example of an organism changing is you..us. Consider you were once a single cell...to a fetus...to a child to a teen to an adult. Imagine the changes that can occur over eons of time.
Thinking you are special or unique are powerful reasons to cling to a belief in the supernatural. But do these powerful desires prevent us from seeing a more obvious truth? That there is nothing but what exist..the Universe...no God...That we observe nothing, because there is nothing.

a reply to: cooperton

Show one example of a population of organisms gradually changing into a distinct new organism. Otherwise stop wasting thread space. I'll save you time, there is no such experiment, because evolution is not observable even under meticulous artificial selection in a lab setting, which indicates it does not happen. Until then, you are simply believing based on faith. Faith in meaninglessness for that matter... so sad.

You can ignore the truth forever. Doesn't matter. You're a fake, a fraud and part of a corrupt cult.
Everything you mentioned is reported in the journals. You just don't bother to read them. You don't bother to research the real science.

Did you start writing those letters? I doubt it.

a reply to: cooperton

It appears as though I've silenced the opposition. Remember Phantom, this is good news that evolutionary theory is wrong, it means we aren't some mutant accident void of meaning, instead we have the ability to find the enduring Truth that never dies.

You articulate our like minded level of understanding so perfectly.

Very well done!

originally posted by: toktaylor
You may not like the truth

No I love the truth. I have no bias in my search. Your bias is that just because I believe in God I do so blindly, but that is not true. I have come to the realization of a Higher Intelligence due to a rigorous pursuit of understanding in all fields of knowledge without bias. I hope the best for all humankind and that we may all come to live harmoniously with others and the earth. Survival of the fittest is detrimental and obsolete.

a reply to: Phantom423

Cite papers that endorse your position. There is ZERO evidence for your crap. "Search diligently"????? That's something you know absolutely nothing about. Because you're lazy, you're a liar and your cult stinks of corruption.

Please tell me you're not a scientist? There's just no way you could be.
Then again if you are, the confirmation would most liberating.

a reply to: cooperton
The fundamental problem with God and religion is that word..."belief".
Here is the problem with “Belief”. There are many levels of probability, from very unlikely to very likely, that something might be true or untrue. But once you “Believe” something, then the search for answers stops.

From a practical standpoint, belief can serve a purpose at times. Different individuals may have widely different abilities to tolerate uncertainty. Too much uncertainty from a functional or emotional standpoint can be both unnerving and disabling.

Belief, not supported by observable facts, can simply be plain wrong and can lead us in dangerous directions. Some healthy skepticism is what allows us to make new discoveries, to clarify reality, to invent, to imagine..to go in search of clear concise conclusions...to discover the truth.