It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


NEWS: Honor Killings in Germany.

page: 2
<< 1   >>

log in


posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 02:24 AM
Here in the west of Scotland there are protestants and catholics, most get on well but there is minority that hate each other with such passion that people do occasionally get badly hurt. There are individuals within families that are outcast for even dating somebody of the other faith. So much for Christians "moving on". I'm quite sure if the law turned a blind eye there would quite a few fatalities.

We have mental institutions, that still have to this day, women who were perfectly sane when locked up and their only crime was to have a child out of wedlock in the SIXTIES!!!! Jesus H Christ where does that figure amongst the "modern" christian thinking ? The reason that they are still there is that thay are institutionalised and would be incapable of fending for themselves on the outside.

Remember the saying "people in glass houses".

[edit on 16-3-2005 by malcr]

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 02:32 AM

o, if it's propagated, it's due to the members' ignorance and/or unwillingness to speak out due to reprisal. You are aware that Islamist apostates are legally allowed to be murdered, right?

ZeroDeep, I don't have the time to debate your religion with you. You should spend your energy modernizing it rather than defending it. If Muslims put half as much time into modernization as they do into praying, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

To make my point succinctly, I'll say this: When your Prophet was on the earth, why did he not say anything about genital mutilation of women? Clearly it was practiced back then and having so many wives, he would have been aware of it, so if he was setting up the "Next Great Religion", why didn't he condemn the practice of cutting out a girl-child's clitoris? You are aware of the clitoris and its value to the female, correct? I am sure your Prophet was similarly aware, and yet he said nothing, thereby dooming generations of girls to a horrible fate. Why is that?

Just because you have secularly educated scholars saying that Umm Attia's hadith is not a valid hadith doesn't change anything. To many Muslims, these are the words of your Prophet and they describe how to perform this rite.

If prayers can be broadcast with a megaphone, they can also broadcast: "Please leave your daughter's clit intact."

I'm not Muslim, ergo, much of what you stated is irellevent, though it holds no relevence regardless. Islam needs to understand that it cannot abide by it's ethical behaviour universaly in all non-middle eastern countries that propogate this type of tribal mentality. You seem to believe that all followers of Islam hold a primitive countenance, once again, you're wrong and have no reason to state this. These are isolated cases that have nothing to do with Islam.

You're blabbing nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic which is honour killing, instead, you have used this to further perpuate your hatred and bigotry of Islam. I'm not worried about Adatheeths written by historians hundreds of years after Muhhamed Ibn Abdhallas death, nor am I worried about the practice of circumscision --these are different topics all together.

I don't care about apostates, nor does that have any relevence to this topic.


posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 03:14 AM

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Smallpeeps and Rapier, I know you didn't mean it because you didn't know

Well since I'm getting called out here...

if you'd like a book on some horrible things that American Christians have done in the name of God, you could start with Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakaur. Once you've finished that, I'll have compiled a list of reading material for you that's so long, you'll be hating the Christians as much as anyone.

Sure, I'll grant that some Christians became savages during the dark ages. What's the excuse for the Islamic savage acts in this modern age? Where's the Al Jazeera 20/20 special; "Gang-Raping: Let's Knock That Crap Off, Okay?"

1. Do you think that everyone that is unlike yourself is a menace to the world, or just the Muslims

Just people who hate and who maim women. Tough for you to grasp, I'm sure.

2. if you believe in God, why do you think He made us all so different if he wanted us to all be the same?

Please phrase this question in a way that can be understood. Your spittle and hatred are preventing you from communicating.

3. Do you know that the Christians and the Muslims have a common lineage?

I know more about both religons than you do. I also know that only ONE of these two religions allows its subjects to maim, torture and abuse women. Only one of these groups sanctions the repression and downright dehumanization of the female.

4. Why do you think that it is better that Christianity has "evolved" way beyond it's origins (and turned into a kind of business) then Islam which is today more or less what it always has been? They follow their original practices more closely than Christians do.

Yes, Islamists have refused to modernize and so are percieved as neanderthals... What's your point? (Actually that's not true because Neanderthal Man took good care of his women.)

5. In which particular circumstances do you think it is ok to judge an entire people based on the actions of a few?

A few? Your religion has a legacy of cruelty toward females.

Only ignorant ranters like you honestly believe that "muslimes" lack adaptability. Learn some history. Think independantly. Stop believing what the media says, you can do your own investigation if you put your mind to it for more than two seconds.

How do you feel about these practices? Why don't moderate muslims take the lead in stamping them out since the ENTIRE WORLD finds these practices abhorrent?

Tell me Servo, what does your wife/girlfriend think of the heinous acts committed by Muslims upon their females? I am curious.

I'd like to start with: That reply wasn't for you. You seemed a little more tolerant until just recently.
2. If by "Some Christians in the Dark Ages", you mean the Vatican for 1,200 years, then we are in agreance here. And Under the Banner of Heaven is a book about American Christians killing in the name of God in the 80's... quite possibly the "Dark Ages" for you. Gang rape is a common problem in the US... there's a fairly public case going on right now in the famed OC (the place, not the show)
3. It sounds like you think that ALL 700,000 some odd Muslims (second largest religion in the world) are FUNDAMENTALIST brutal sexists or terrorists... or both.
4. You dodged my question about God making us all different very poorly.
5. Being that your knowledge of both religions far exceeds my own (a claim in and of itself that is epistemologically impossible), you'd know that ONE religion beat, raped, waged war on, segregated and put down culture and country until very recently when it has become the ultimate super power, and thus the standard by which all other cultures should be judged (as you know, all of our presidents and most of our government leaders have been Christian, and we have a lineage of Christian leaders that can be traced back to the very birth of Christianity itself. Also, I can't quite remember the reason that our colonists were called "pilgrims"... I think it had something to do with freedom from religious persecution or something?)
6. To compare ANY living human to a neanderthal would be downright racist, sir. In fact, I know many upright Muslims, here in the US and have been in contact with a few in two Middle Eastern countries since the war in Iraq started via the internet and I can guarantee that they drive cars (just like you and I), the drink water from the tap (just like you and I), they use electricity (just like you and I), they practice safe sex (just like I, and hopefully you), they are pacifist and treat their women with respect and equality (which is more than I can say for most of America), and they have a high degree of tolerance (which is MORE than I can say for you and I).
7. If by "your religion" you mean the Presbyterians, I would say you've misread your history books. As signed in my previous post, I am a Presbyterian. With your far superior knowledge of Christianity I'm sure you'd know that we were the first Church to recognize women as equals under the eyes of God and we were the first to give women equal titles, offices, and positions within the Church as men (much to the dismay of many, MANY conservative WHITE men who felt that a woman's place is in the kitchen or giving birth). And Christianity DOES have a legacy of cruelty towards women. I'd ask you to at least recognize where the tradition of "dancing with the bride" made its origin.
8. "How do you feel about these practices? Why don't moderate Muslims take the lead in stamping them out since the ENTIRE WORLD finds these practices abhorrent?" I hate the practices as much as anyone, but I recognize that it is a minority fundamentalist sect that is committing these crimes against humanity, not the entire 12% of the Earth's population. I would encourage you, as always, to go find some facts before damning an entire culture based on your narrow-minded biases. The media doesn't always tell the truth and the whole truth. Just to let you know, the modern sects of Islam ARE stamping out these practices, and are flexing their power, but power only goes so far. Let me make it analogous to the Mormons (which as you know are the fastest growing American religion). We've made good progress in making polygamy unconstitutional (though I don't think it's the government's business who marries who), but we still have a long way to go... for instance, coming down harder on Utah state judges for allowing 14 year olds to marry fully grown men. But that might be hard considering that they're a free people who organize and run their own governments... go figure.
My wife (who is in the room with me) "pities these poor women who are so abused, but pities you almost as much".
P.S. "Please phrase this question in a way that can be understood. Your spittle and hatred are preventing you from communicating." How dare you?

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 03:41 AM
Servo, I skimmed over the fact that you are a Presbyterian. I truly do apologize for insinuating that you are a muslim.

I don't know quite how to respond. It seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus was a feminist and that's why I accept him as divine. It also seems fairly obvious to me that Islam is endemically intolerant of dissent and is a religion which tacitly encourages its male members to view women as property. I guess I'll have to read more. :^)

I'm fairly open minded but at the same time I simply do not see the need for the Islam faith. Why does humanity need another religion, and particularly one that so vehemently claims to be the one true faith? I suppose there's groups of people who feel that all things should be tolerated, but when I hear about women getting buried up to their necks and stoned, I wonder to myself, "Who would want to identify with that faith"? I suppose I'm the odd one.

I truly didn't understand your question about God wanting us to be different. How does that make honor killings, acid-throwing, gang-rapes and gential mutilation something that should be patiently abided? The heinous acts of Christians are committed by people who claim to belong to a particular church, which I do not. For the record, I am happy to clarify the issue regarding my views: I find Islam to be an abhorrent belief system and totally unneeded on planet earth along with the majority of Christian churches. I do not see what either organized Christian churches or Islam (which is essentially an organized global church) contribute to the overall betterment of humanity. I find both of them to be an overt slap in the face to all women, but the Islamist slap has a particularly violent sting to it.

To clarify, I would lump all members of organized Christian churches into the Neanderthal group, along with any Muslim who isn't working 24/7 to modify the intolerance of their faith. I guess you could say that I worship the female human before I worship God. Is that clear enough? Women are my God.

[edit on 16-3-2005 by smallpeeps]

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 06:28 AM
Well, this thread wasn't exactly about going after all muslims, there are moderate Muslims that are good people. One of the points i was trying to make with this thread, is that as the authorities in Germany are saying....political correctness is stopping them, and probably many other nations, from doing the right they won't be called racists.

I would say, anyone who does this kind of violent act, no matter what religion, or race they are, they should be punished accordingly, and the Muslim children who come from an extremist background, and that are living in these European nations, and probably some in the US also, should be paid attention to and maybe even try to get them away from these thoughts, that women are subservient to them, and they can do anything they want to women.... but because countries like Germany are afraid of how the world will percive them, they are not doing the right thing.

[edit on 16-3-2005 by Muaddib]

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 07:03 AM
LOL - Let one person say something derogatory against islam as a whole and the entire thread is deflected from its original discussion to a comparison of christianity and islam and why christianity is no better.

Happens every time...

While I am sure this is the only recourse some feel they have to save face for the religion they love, there are obvious social issues with what many muslims are being taught - and some form of social engineering is certainly needed, at least for the ones that desire to pursue life and the fullfilling thereof in western countries.

[edit on 16-3-2005 by bios]

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:37 AM
I happen to see a clear connection between the act of honor killing and the other hateful acts perpetuated against women by men who hide inside this religion. It's symptomatic of a religion which encourages men to view women as seductive cows. Really when you analyze the Muslim attitude toward women, that's what it boils down to: They are temptresses and so should be encased in beekeeper suits because otherwise their charms will send good Islamic men to hell.

I am glad to have spoken out against both Zionism and Islam on ATS because these two confused belief systems are largely responsible for the screwed up world we are now living in and which is getting worse by the minute. Who cares about Abraham or EITHER of his stupid kids? I'm sick of hearing about it. Neither of these groups can stop the present runaway train of their stupidity and so the whole world is embroiled in a conflict over the lame-arse scrap of "promised land" that Jehovah/Allah supposedly promised to one of them. Meanwhile the thinking people of the world have to suffer. Why is it the responsibility of European nations to help Muslims see the wrongness of these crimes? Shouldn't their own religious leaders handle that before trying to integrate with the modern world?

Frankly, I am tired of hearing about Abraham and his wonderful God who came out of the cloud and said, "Hey there chumly, you can be my servant if you'll just KILL YOUR SON." Can we agree that Abraham was a moron in that he listened to this voice? God how I wish someone had kicked his scrawny arse way back when. Maybe if Sarah and Hagar had both slapped the heck out of him, the world wouldn't be the war-filled craphole it is today.

Yes I have read the Quran --although since I didn't read it in arabic, many Muslims would say I haven't actually read it-- and it's not even as sophisticated as the Old Testament of the Bible, which is really saying something since that's a pretty heinous book itself. Jesus would have been divine regardless of his heritage. He REPLACED the mosaic law with ONE commandment: "Love each other." I see him as being beyond any Abrahamic connections. His WORDS made him divine, not his blood. The words of the follow-up prophet, Mohammed, cannot even compare.

I am of the opinion that both branches of Abraham are quite unfit to inherit ANYTHING, even this little scrap of desert they are fighting over and which fight the USA is now forced to involve itself in. I am a hater of all organized religion, and the Islamic faith is (A) the most organized, and (B) the biggest modern-day degrader of females. What more is there to say? If I am viewed as being intolerant by some men, I would respond by calling them insensitive to the plight of women, and I would be correct.

[edit on 16-3-2005 by smallpeeps]

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:37 PM
Compare the number of violent crimes commited against women in the States to ANY Islamic country. Let me know what you find out.

I know that this debate wasn't meant to be in this thread, for standing up for the Muslims, I apologize... but I think it's the duty of all good men to help put a stop to intolerance... even if I did come off as irrational and angry (because I was), I don't think it matters in the slightest because there will always be Islam and I don't think anyone's jumping at the chance to irradicate them. Would any of you volunteer to fight the war against Islam? It's not like it hasn't been tried before, but apparently now we have the technology to get it done without being irradicated ourselves.
P.S. Smallpeeps "love eachother"? Would you try practicing what you've said? I mean I doubt that loving people will stop violent crimes against anyone, Jesus apparently disagrees... not that anyone KNOWS what Jesus said. And is there a "need" for anyone who's alive? What did you mean by the world doesn't NEED Islam? You'd think the world would have had that sorted out by now if it didn't need Islam.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 09:21 AM

Originally posted by smallpeeps
. . . I accept him as divine.
-another post-
I am of the opinion that both branches of Abraham are quite unfit to inherit ANYTHING

Must be my lucky day. I agree with small on two things, wow!

(actually 3, see below)

Must be the reason for Jesus- so 'we' could have an open door!

ServoHahn said
. . . a claim in and of itself that is epistemologically impossible . . .

At your #5. I don't get this. Does this mean someone can't understand or determine the nature of more than one thing? Or is it any thing?

Islam, whatever it truly means, has to get pro-active (not moderate) in total. The religion itself needs to step into the 21st century. All this stuff about 'honor this and that' is archaic and whether it is 'by the book' or not needs to cease.

When people come into a new country they agree by virtue of their pressence to adhere to its laws. The Germans (hopefully) will treat the family of this poor woman as they would any murderers.


posted on Mar, 18 2005 @ 02:22 AM

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

ServoHahn said
. . . a claim in and of itself that is epistemologically impossible . . .

At your #5. I don't get this. Does this mean someone can't understand or determine the nature of more than one thing? Or is it any thing?


Smallpeeps claims to know a lot of things that I consider impossible. It would be impossible for him to know that he knows more about anything than I do, or that he knows anything about me, unless he's really my philosophy of religion teacher in disguise... or perheps one of my friends, but I doubt it. This is why I'm frustrated with peeps, he seems to slip in and out of rationalism.

new topics

top topics

<< 1   >>

log in