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NEWS: Honor Killings in Germany.

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posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Another horrible murder, named "honor killings" by extremist Muslims, occurred in Germany but a few weeks ago. Hatin Surucu, the victim who was 23 years old and was survived by her 5 year old son, was shot several times in the head and chest by her own brothers. Her three brothers from 18-25 years old pleaded not guilty because her death is considered to have been necessary to maintain the honor of their family. The murder was a result from Mrs Surucu leaving her cousin to whom she had been arranged to marry when she was 15 years old. She left her cousin with her child and returned to Berlin, where she was born.
 

She had recently also graduated from electrical engineering, and as told by her friends, she used to say she just wanted to live her own life. If the three brothers of the victim are found guilty, this would be the sixth honor killing within Berlin's 200,000 Muslim population in the past four months. What is even more shocking are the reactions of some Turkish school children whom when asked what they though about Mrs Surucu's murder responded that she deserved it for living like a German. The children in that school were asked about this murder because the crime occurred a few yards from the school's backyard.


www.telegraph.co.uk
She broke with her family, refused to wear the Muslim headscarf and lived with her child in a hostel.

In an open letter last week, the headmaster of the school publicly denounced the attitude of his pupils. Other head teachers in Berlin, however, said that they were not surprised by the children's reaction.

"This type of thinking is latent in their minds," said the head of another predominantly Turkish immigrant school in the district, who asked not to be identified. Their remarks, he said, reminded him of the spontaneous "victory dances" which immigrant pupils at his school had staged after the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

The five Muslim women killed in recent months were murdered by their husbands or partners because they had "insulted" the family honour by wanting to end the relationship.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


According to the police in Berlin the victim had complained about her brothers making death threats if she would leave her husband, but nothing was done. Karl Mollenhauer, a police psychologist in Berlin blamed Islamic religious figures for failing to address this problem, but authorities in the country are also to blame because most have decided not to intervene in these cases because they could be branded as racists. Records show 45 such murders being committed in the past 8 years, but one has to wonder if those numbers are correct because as seen in the article authorities in Germany are saying they decided not to get involved in these "honor killings" so they won't be branded racists.

Related News Links:
service.spiegel.de

[edit on 15-3-2005 by Muaddib]




posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 07:16 PM
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I just don't understand how anything can make your own blood do this. This is as frightening as it gets. Personal honor vs. a sibling and the honor wins.

It is a sad world some people live in. A woman, a sister, is such a non-entity that this is possible? Any country that doesn't protect these women have a lot of explaining to do.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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That is why muslims should be invaded and rehabitated.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 07:37 PM
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Bad stuff, no doubt. I hope the Germans treat them like any other murderer. Hopefully these women (someday) will get it through someone's head that this is not acceptable.

Not as severe, but this reminds me of 'shunning' and other forms of punishing people of one's own society for some act of rebellion or defiance.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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I don't want to slam Islam like so many others do, but how can this practice be tolerated? If there is no moderate Islamic voice speaking out against this crap, these people are in for some serious backlash.

Honor killings, sanctioned gang-rapes, throwing acid in women's faces, etc... If this stuff was done in the name of Christ you'd have tons of Christians either (A) speaking out en masse, or (B) picking another religion. Where is the condemnation of this from Islamists?!



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
That is why muslims should be invaded and rehabitated.


That was called the Crusades, and all ten of so of them failed miserably.

-----

There is wide condemnation of these acts, there are no equivalent of a "pope" in Islam, control stems from the particular Mosque and Imam, therefore it is difficult to change such practices.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by rapier28

Originally posted by Hellraiser
That is why muslims should be invaded and rehabitated.


That was called the Crusades, and all ten of so of them failed miserably.

-----

There is wide condemnation of these acts, there are no equivalent of a "pope" in Islam, control stems from the particular Mosque and Imam, therefore it is difficult to change such practices.



with today's technology it is possible.. look at usa it already has its ass in the middle of it, israel and usa can take over the whole middle east, and if not then drop a few moabs on them and build parking lots and mcdonalds restaraunts there, more usefulness then what islam gives, or just stir the so called american orange revolutions there



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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Hellraiser,
I usually don't get downright insulting on ATS because it's unprofessional and advised against, but what you've said is idiotic. Why don't we kill all the white people for ruling the world? Why don't we kill all the black people for being poor and causing crime? Why don't we kill all the Christians... after all, how many times has George Bush used God's name to endorse our war in Iraq? He says God is his ultimate authority and he believes he's acting in His name. What, so our God is better than theirs because we can kill more of them then they can of us? You, sir, should be invaded and rehabilitated. Shame on you.
Smallpeeps and Rapier, I know you didn't mean it because you didn't know, but the Protestants (the ones who founded our country and who make up the majority of Judeo-Christian religions in the States) do not act under the guidance of anything like the Pope either. And, if you'd like a book on some horrible things that American Christians have done in the name of God, you could start with Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakaur. Once you've finished that, I'll have compiled a list of reading material for you that's so long, you'll be hating the Christians as much as anyone.
It is the kind of intolerance and misunderstanding shown on this board that keeps the divide between people of different cultures. Go enlighten yourselves.
Presbyterianally yours,
Servo

[edit on 15-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

[edit on 15-3-2005 by ServoHahn]



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by ServoHahn
Hellraiser,
I usually don't get downright insulting on ATS because it's unprofessional and advised against, but what you've said is idiotic. Why don't we kill all the white people for ruling the world? Why don't we kill all the black people for being poor and causing crime?
race is bull#, the main things are ethnics and culture,adaptability which the muslimes lack Why don't we kill all the Christians... after all, how many times has George Bush used God's name to endorse our war in Iraq?why don't we? because unlike islam, this religion evolved



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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I should just requote myself but obviously saying it the first time didn't have any impact on what you believe so I don't think I can help you. I'll leave you with a few questions then. 1. Do you think that everyone that is unlike yourself is a menace to the world, or just the Muslims and 2. if you believe in God, why do you think He made us all so different if he wanted us to all be the same? 3. Do you know that the Christians and the Muslims have a common lineage? 4. Why do you think that it is better that Christianity has "evolved" way beyond it's origins (and turned into a kind of business) then Islam which is today more or less what it always has been? They follow their original practices more closely than Christians do. 5. In which particular circumstances do you think it is ok to judge an entire people based on the actions of a few? (because you seem to be the final arbiter and judge in these situations)
-T
P.S. Only ignorant ranters like you honestly believe that "muslimes" lack adaptability. Learn some history. Think independantly. Stop believing what the media says, you can do your own investigation if you put your mind to it for more than two seconds.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by ServoHahn
I should just requote myself but obviously saying it the first time didn't have any impact on what you believe so I don't think I can help you. I'll leave you with a few questions then. 1. Do you think that everyone that is unlike yourself is a menace to the world, or just the Muslimsif you think following an unevolved/uncivilised and violent cult is ok then yea you are and 2. if you believe in God,i don't why do you think He made us all so different if he wanted us to all be the same? 3. Do you know that the Christians and the Muslims have a common lineage?i don't care what they had it's about now, they should evolve or else 4. Why do you think that it is better that Christianity has "evolved" way beyond it's origins (and turned into a kind of business) then Islam which is today more or less what it always has been? They follow their original practices more closely than Christians do.violance and primitive laws, they treat women like objects, there is nothing useful out of muslim countries right now but oil and terrorism, now 700+ years ago would be different.. 5. In which particular circumstances do you think it is ok to judge an entire people based on the actions of a few? (because you seem to be the final arbiter and judge in these situations)don't give me this bs i lived half of my life in a muslim nation
-T
P.S. Only ignorant ranters like you honestly believe that "muslimes" lack adaptability. Learn some history. Think independantly. Stop believing what the media says,yeah the only thing is that i lived and expirienced this crappy way of life in a muslim nation..



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:57 PM
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Smallpeeps and Rapier, I know you didn't mean it because you didn't know

Well since I'm getting called out here...


if you'd like a book on some horrible things that American Christians have done in the name of God, you could start with Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakaur. Once you've finished that, I'll have compiled a list of reading material for you that's so long, you'll be hating the Christians as much as anyone.

Sure, I'll grant that some Christians became savages during the dark ages. What's the excuse for the Islamic savage acts in this modern age? Where's the Al Jazeera 20/20 special; "Gang-Raping: Let's Knock That Crap Off, Okay?"


1. Do you think that everyone that is unlike yourself is a menace to the world, or just the Muslims

Just people who hate and who maim women. Tough for you to grasp, I'm sure.


2. if you believe in God, why do you think He made us all so different if he wanted us to all be the same?

Please phrase this question in a way that can be understood. Your spittle and hatred are preventing you from communicating.


3. Do you know that the Christians and the Muslims have a common lineage?

I know more about both religons than you do. I also know that only ONE of these two religions allows its subjects to maim, torture and abuse women. Only one of these groups sanctions the repression and downright dehumanization of the female.


4. Why do you think that it is better that Christianity has "evolved" way beyond it's origins (and turned into a kind of business) then Islam which is today more or less what it always has been? They follow their original practices more closely than Christians do.

Yes, Islamists have refused to modernize and so are percieved as neanderthals... What's your point? (Actually that's not true because Neanderthal Man took good care of his women.)


5. In which particular circumstances do you think it is ok to judge an entire people based on the actions of a few?

A few? Your religion has a legacy of cruelty toward females.


Only ignorant ranters like you honestly believe that "muslimes" lack adaptability. Learn some history. Think independantly. Stop believing what the media says, you can do your own investigation if you put your mind to it for more than two seconds.

How do you feel about these practices? Why don't moderate muslims take the lead in stamping them out since the ENTIRE WORLD finds these practices abhorrent?

Tell me Servo, what does your wife/girlfriend think of the heinous acts committed by Muslims upon their females? I am curious.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 10:24 PM
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Seems to me, based on some of the posts here, that we should have absolutely no input into whether or not a woman is killed by her family. It is, after all, a religious thing? If that's the case. There's not much we should be able to do about it... It is, after all, someone else's, take on what God wants.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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Actually smallpeeps, Neanderthal man frequently took women as "possession" from other tribes/caves/etc.

-----

A bunch of christians debating this issue on an internet forum is not going to solve this problem. Islam has already begun to tackle this issue as a whole.

A division within Islam has already begun.


Sep

posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
That is why muslims should be invaded and rehabitated.


Who is going to "invade and rehabit" them? The US? Here is a thread just above this one that you might have missed.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Does that mean all the Americans are rapists?



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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I abhor the "Honor Killings" and am with the previous posters who wanted to know why there is no Islamic public outrage over the degradation of females in their religion?

I am also incredibly curious as to how some members know how Neanderthal man interacted with Neanderthal woman??



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by groingrinder
I am also incredibly curious as to how some members know how Neanderthal man interacted with Neanderthal woman??


Discovery Channel.


As for how they know, beats me.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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I am also incredibly curious as to how some members know how Neanderthal man interacted with Neanderthal woman??

Well in order to survive, he couldn't go around killing females for stupid reasons. Any study of evolutionary man reveals that it was the female ova which made her so valuable because without her, there's no propagation of the species. It is only due to the female that the human race succeeded. To evolutionary man, each woman would have been a thing of great value.

Even if Neanderthal had access to acid, I am fairly certain that he would not throw it into his woman's face for any reason whatsoever.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 01:44 AM
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That is why muslims should be invaded and rehabitated.


No, not really. If one looks hard enough, one finds that honour killings occure in all creeds and races; Sikhs have done it to thier women in India for decades, and women are given equal rights in Sikhism, as it were, Hinduism --culturaly-- begate the horrific ritual of Sati, where a wife would sacrifice her life at her husbands death by being burned alive on his funeral pire. May I also ask you when women were given equal rights in America? Have we forgoten that? Let us also look at statistics that may prove even more damaging to your dogmatic stance that Islam soley is deliterious to women rights:

www.fathersforlife.org...

Murders in the US in 1995

Men murdered by girlfriends/wives 3% of 16,630 499 2.31
Women murdered by boyfriends/husbands 26% of 3,752 976 4.52


Murders in the US in 1996

Men murdered by girlfriends/wives 3% of 15,848 475 2.4
Women murdered by boyfriends/husband 30% of 2,711 813 4.1


According to the FBI, in 1995 spousal murder victims were comprised of 33.8% men and 66.2% women.

"Hell hath no fury, like a women scorn" as they say.





Sure, I'll grant that some Christians became savages during the dark ages. What's the excuse for the Islamic savage acts in this modern age? Where's the Al Jazeera 20/20 special;


These acts had nothing to do with Islam; they were initiated be a highly rapa-consciousness coupled with a close nit tribal family mentality. You cannot sit there and chide Islam for soley being ones who step all over womens rights, when in America Christian fundamentalists molest young children and engage in polygamy. As sad as this case is, people have used it to fuel thier predispotory hatred for Islam and it's repsected followers.




I don't want to slam Islam like so many others do, but how can this practice be tolerated? If there is no moderate Islamic voice speaking out against this crap, these people are in for some serious backlash.


Of course you want, in fact, you just did this entire thread: by comparing these acts -- according to you, they seem confined in Islamic countries, or instigated by Islamic members-- to those done by Christians, then stating that there would be a public outcry against them by Christians due to the fact that it's not sanctioned by God -- Though one should also look at the Old Testmant, however much Christians may use it selectivley: (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB) If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife-- you assume that there is not outcry by Islamic members against this horrific act, well, you are wrong, for you decided to close your eyes and not further research this phenomenom; as it were:

Do us all a favour and read all these links, please.

news.bbc.co.uk...
www.mcb.org.uk/honour_killings.pdf
www.gendercide.org...
www.middleastwomen.org...



I know more about both religons than you do. I also know that only ONE of these two religions allows its subjects to maim, torture and abuse women. Only one of these groups sanctions the repression and downright dehumanization of the female


No, you are obviously lying; if you were well read in Islam, you would distinctly understand that such behaviour is forbiden against women, if it is propogated, it's through dogma fear accrued for manipulation and control.




Yes, Islamists have refused to modernize and so are percieved as neanderthals... What's your point? (Actually that's not true because Neanderthal Man took good care of his women.)


You are obviously a bigoted soul, ergo your inability to rationality perceive this circumstance and the Islamic faith. Nary did you realize that many Islamic countries are moderized tatamount to many western countries: Turkey, for example. You are assuming that Islamic members are stuck in a primitive numenom on par with that of Neanderthal man. This is nothing but bigoted dogma which holds no rational and reasoned stance.




A few? Your religion has a legacy of cruelty toward females.


So does the entire race of man. As I stated earlier, when were women given parity in the west? Women in Sweden were not allowed to vote untill when exactly? The West percieved the African man to be inferior, as they did most non-Christians for how long?

You live in a black and white world; this world will soon implode when you realize that it's filled with hatred and anxiety.

Deep



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 02:16 AM
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if you were well read in Islam, you would distinctly understand that such behaviour is forbiden against women, if it is propogated, it's through dogma fear accrued for manipulation and control.

No, if it's propagated, it's due to the members' ignorance and/or unwillingness to speak out due to reprisal. You are aware that Islamist apostates are legally allowed to be murdered, right?

ZeroDeep, I don't have the time to debate your religion with you. You should spend your energy modernizing it rather than defending it. If Muslims put half as much time into modernization as they do into praying, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

To make my point succinctly, I'll say this: When your Prophet was on the earth, why did he not say anything about genital mutilation of women? Clearly it was practiced back then and having so many wives, he would have been aware of it, so if he was setting up the "Next Great Religion", why didn't he condemn the practice of cutting out a girl-child's clitoris? You are aware of the clitoris and its value to the female, correct? I am sure your Prophet was similarly aware, and yet he said nothing, thereby dooming generations of girls to a horrible fate. Why is that?

Just because you have secularly educated scholars saying that Umm Attia's hadith is not a valid hadith doesn't change anything. To many Muslims, these are the words of your Prophet and they describe how to perform this rite.

If prayers can be broadcast with a megaphone, they can also broadcast: "Please leave your daughter's clit intact."



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