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The Freedom to Disagree

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posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: zosimov



What do you think, friends? Do you see an overall struggle to engage in thoughtful and dynamic dialogue with opponents, or is the current state of discourse messy because freedom itself is messy? Could each of us be better bearers of such a worthy responsibility?


There is a real struggle , Nice write up by the way
.

The struggle is that one side is standing on Facts , Statistics and Logic and the other side is standing on wishful thinking and a brittle since of political correctness .

The only defense the other side has is to hurl accusations of Racism, Sexism and other isim's etc etc etc the arguments have completely broken down to this ridiculous since of hypocritical entitled thinking that there right and everyone else is just being mean .

Sociologically it's very very unhealthy the way people are acting and thinking , nothing good is going to come of it.





posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: zosimov

I've at least seen happiness machines and engineering of consent, I'm not sure if I ever seen the last two episodes of it though, the titles seem unfamiliar.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: Brotherman



I think people should go camping more or build your own car or something instead, conversation is progressive and mutual understandings have to be made to become successful in your endeavor.

Our next door neighbors own a Chinese restaurant within walking distance. Instead of doing the delivery only service, they decided to remodel while being closed.

I guess the remodel is done by now. Now my son in law is going to have the house all caulked and painted starting tomorrow. The house needs it, leaks rain.

Anyway, the neighbor saw my son in law doing things on the outside to prep for the painting, so he painted his own house. Then we changed our leaky back door so the neighbor changed his back door. And now he's doing great paving in his side yard.

We get along great with our neighbors.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:20 AM
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Then on the other side, you've got the new money, the technocrats, the big tech companies, modern industries, the upstarts who've suddenly come into ridiculous money over the last 20 years and now want control.



Im am not so sure the technocrats with their new money is as organic as they pretend.
Take Facebook. Opened "privately" when Congress shut down Darpas Lifelog publicly.
Complete with an idiot pr head with a stupid dorm or garage background.




posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:21 AM
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originally posted by: pthena

The balance comes from seeing what part the individual plays for the whole, and taking personal responsibility for that.



Could each of us be better bearers of such a worthy responsibility?

Yes we could!
Hey, that sounds a bit like "Yes We Can!"

I just happened to accidently quote this verse on another thread:
Galatians 6:

1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5For every man shall bear his own burden.

The elements seem to all be there:

Meekness
Helping
Shared burden
Personal responsibility

We can do this !
And if we don't then we can only blame ourselves.



We can! We have before and still on occasion do and will again! And you're right that if we fail it's only because we didn't put in the effort.

As for the article, the Canadian anthropologist seemed to be just that--studying a society from the outside, with only a limited or rudimentary perspective. He really lost me when he started assuming we look at grocers/cashiers (what's now dubbed "essential workers" in a very dehumanizing way) in some sort of supercilious manner, and explained why Canadians feel they're on equal ground.

As for our rugged individualism, I see that as only one small aspect of the American psyche. We often provide one another with tremendous community and support.

I just didn't see eye to eye with that author at all.

Have a great day pthena!
So I have a whole robin story to finish up. I'll post the epilogue in you In the Beginning There Was () thread.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:21 AM
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originally posted by: ColeYounger
a reply to: zosimov




We are living in a time when free expression of thought and ideas are more abundant than ever before, when we are (mostly) free to think, say, and do what we think is best


Freedom of thought may still exist, but freedom of expression /speech is gone. It's in the rear-view mirror, and fading.


Exactly, Freedom of speech/expression has vanished entirely, a sign of the coming totalitarianism that will become the USA

People say the "wrong" thing, even if it is fairly innocous and they are hounded on social media and doxed.

People take the "wrong" stance and people come in groups knocking at screaming at doors and scaring families.

People said the "wrong" thing 20-40 years ago when it was acceptable to say and it is dug up and they are hounded out of jobs and people demand their firing.

People with the "wrong" ideology who are invited to speak on campuses have students rioting and committing violence to prevent other students from hearing what the person has to say.

Someone posts a "wrong" sign at their business supporting the "wrong" candidate, and the business is destroyed, through actual violence or through doxing.

All of the above is considered part of justice and fairness and political correctness,
and something that MUST be done in order to insure
everyone speaks the "correct" way and thinks the "correct" way.

This is happening daily all over the US and it is applauded and perpetuated
as just and fair and right behavior.

It is not, it is wrong, it is evil, it is totalitarian, it is bullying to the extreme.

That is why I joined "We will not be silenced."
I refuse to allow anyone to bully me
into keeping my opinions and thoughts quiet
and to hide my ideas or ideology
out of fear of job loss, fear of retribution, fear of bullying.

Throw paint on me, dox me etc. but you can no
longer silence me.

I have had enough.

I believe in freedom of speech, no matter how obnoxious (that used to be something people championed, even porn)

I believe in freedom to dialog and have civil discussion about ideologies, because that makes us stronger and exposes us to ideas and thoughts we may never have come up with in the hive mind or on our own.

I believe that every human being's life regardless of skin color or culture, is worthwhile and to be respected, which is an unpopular idea that can get you attacked these days.

I believe that people must be free to make any personal choice for themselves and their families as long as they do not physically hurt others or their property. (this is also an unpopular thought as some feel people must be forced into doing what is good for society or what some say is good for the individual, even if the individual doesn't want it)

But unfortunately, freedom is nearly gone in the USA

Many if not most who dox, demand job loss, destroy businesses,
beat people up for supporting the "wrong" person, social media bully -
see themselves as the good guy when in reality they are evil bullies
intent on totalitarian suppression that is close to that
of what China is doing and will end up with the USA being as repressive and evil as China -
if these evil practices are not stood up to and people finally say

"I will not be silenced" and I am not afraid of you anymore.



edit on 8/16/20 by The2Billies because: addition



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: zosimov

100% agree.

People are absolutely shutting down their own growth because they refuse to even listen.
Listen, listen, listen.

The little word. It doesn't mean you have to agree, it just means you pause and take into account what another person might bring to the table comes from a different collection of life experiences.
Not to bring politics in your lovely OP but that is why I can't be a Republican or Democrat.
I just can't blindly follow either side. There are good things on both sides but so many people won't admit that.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

I absolutely agree that "cancel culture," and that tearing down and censoring everything we disagree with is reprehensible.

This video sums it all up so well.






posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: zosimov



the Canadian anthropologist seemed to be just that--studying a society from the outside, with only a limited or rudimentary perspective.

But he lives so close.
He can probably see the U.S. from his back porch.

My 5th grade teacher was from Canada.
Whenever there was an assembly to show a film, he warned us ahead of time if it was propaganda.


edit on 16-8-2020 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: zosimov

100% agree.

People are absolutely shutting down their own growth because they refuse to even listen.
Listen, listen, listen.

The little word. It doesn't mean you have to agree, it just means you pause and take into account what another person might bring to the table comes from a different collection of life experiences.
Not to bring politics in your lovely OP but that is why I can't be a Republican or Democrat.
I just can't blindly follow either side. There are good things on both sides but so many people won't admit that.


Yes! Listening before forming an opinion/rebuttal is so important (and hard to do).

I'm with you in that I can't invest entirely in either side of the spectrum.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 11:43 AM
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a reply to: RAY1990

I'm also glad you brought up western civilization as a caveat. I am, of course, writing from a western perspective and primarily about western civilization (though I also believe this applies to middle and far eastern society--at least in the past several hundred years).

I had to amended my OP to many societies from the word I started with--most--when I considered that nomadic or smaller tribal societies seem less draconian to me from my limited perspective.


edit on 16-8-2020 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: Caver78

I truly don't see too much divisiveness in day to day interactions either. All hope is not lost, not by a long shot. We wouldn't be here without all of the cooperation and support we've given one another over the years.
Although my day-to-day interactions are highly limited these days, and more so since I was laid off from my job (the whole career is in jeopardy or might need an update).

But even at work, the divisions were becoming apparant. That it's hitting something as fundamental as family relationships is something to think about also, imo.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: The2Billies




People say the "wrong" thing, even if it is fairly innocous and they are hounded on social media and doxed.


There is a fine line to this.
Calling someone an idiot when they park is very different than asking only certain people why they are using their own pool in the HOA because of the color of their skin.

Making false accusations and calling police can have (and probably have in the past) had devastating effects on people. Now that it is caught on camera it is considered innocuous and "free speech", not quite my friend. You are free to say anything, you are not free from consequence!
edit on 16-8-2020 by JAGStorm because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:26 PM
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a reply to: The2Billies




But unfortunately, freedom is nearly gone in the USA


Not for me, on my way to work I purchased some 9mm ammunition at a small gun repair shop, had a wonderful plate of chili con carne for breakfast at a beautiful Mexican restaurant, went to mass even though I'm not a Catholic, Checked in with my crew and now in my office with people from all walks of life, nationalities, religions, and political persuasions. All I hear is camaraderie and laughter. No political bickering or augments at all. If I feel the need for name calling and squabble, I head straight for ATS and the mud pit.

Blessed to be in a creative environment and making money in the process!! Union proud, Union Strong....


edit on 16-8-2020 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: olaru12

Is it really necessary to buy some 9mm ammunition to live freely and peacefully in your own country?
I do not understand.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:33 PM
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originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: olaru12

Is it really necessary to buy some 9mm ammunition to live freely and peacefully in your own country?
I do not understand.



In the US there is a predatory criminal element. And self defense is a constitutional right. And sadly desperate people do desperate acts.

Comprende? amigo....
edit on 16-8-2020 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: olaru12

Is it really necessary to buy some 9mm ammunition to live freely and peacefully in your own country?
I do not understand.



In the US there is a predatory criminal element. And self defense is a constitutional right.


I really would not like to think, that the United States is now the Russia of the late 80s and early 90s. This is a terrible time for the common people.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:39 PM
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originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: olaru12

Is it really necessary to buy some 9mm ammunition to live freely and peacefully in your own country?
I do not understand.



In the US there is a predatory criminal element. And self defense is a constitutional right.


I really would not like to think, that the United States is now the Russia of the late 80s and early 90s. This is a terrible time for the common people.


I'm not in the mood to bicker in this thread where we are trying to find common ground. I'm out....I have work to do in the hated media and entertainment biz.
edit on 16-8-2020 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:41 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: olaru12

Is it really necessary to buy some 9mm ammunition to live freely and peacefully in your own country?
I do not understand.



In the US there is a predatory criminal element. And self defense is a constitutional right.


I really would not like to think, that the United States is now the Russia of the late 80s and early 90s. This is a terrible time for the common people.


I'm not in the mood to bicker in this thread where we are trying to find common ground. I'm out....


Excuse me. Have a nice day.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: RussianTroll

The surrounding world around Russia shouldn't feel safe with all the missing nuke fuel and cleared military depots including arms and ammunition that flood all over the world into the hands of evil people. I think all people should have a fighting chance against all the arms that get shat out of the butthole of Russia and sold to these people everywhere. Sad part about it is, these arms deals are for the US DOLLAR them guys want USD they don't even want their own currency. A couple 9MM rounds shouldn't be a stretch.
edit on 16-8-2020 by Brotherman because: (no reason given)




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