Change My Mind

The private prison cycle of lobbying, donating money to campaigns, and getting more prisoners with longer sentences in order to squeeze out as many taxpayer dollars as possible, is a perversion of our judicial system.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

What has it got in its pocketses? deep artificial neural network?

originally posted by: AutomateThis1

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: CriticalStinker

"We lock away the most people per capita in the world."
Ever think why ?
Look at other countries

"We have been picking up people for pot, locking them up"
Maybe it is still against the law unless for medical reasons WITH a prescription.

"Then they come out and can't get hired because of a "felony".
A felony possession is intent to sell .
Otherwise a misdemeanor in some cases .

"It's a horribly wasteful use of tax dollars, so naturally I disagree. "
So , just let criminals run free ?
Again , take a look at other countries' justice system .

Denying ignorance.
Why ?
Not so difficult with a bit of practice and knowledge .

No disagreeing with other participants please. Your goal should be to work together to get me to change my mind.

Change your mind to what ?
Abracadabra , your mind is changed into a carrot.
But why would I want to change your mind ?

a reply to: AutomateThis1

I'm not sure we can factually say that the US locks up the most people per capita. There are many prisons around the world where people are thrown in jail without any paperwork. There is no processing system. No fingerprints, no mugshots, nothing to identify that a person is currently confined.

That's a fair statement. Also, many of those countries just kill people instead. So, for the sake of argument we'll say the US locks up more per capita than the "civilized" world. Still even, I think it's a wasteful system that doesn't really serve the purpose as intended in an efficient manner.

Prison is supposed to be for a person that is a danger to society, surely there are other ways to deal with people who struggle in other areas in a way that doesn't lock them up for a long time. Find ways to make them productive, not a strain on society. I see you commented to another member that you think much of that issue might be the justice system... I think that's fair, but surely there has to be a relation between the two, or maybe an admission the prisons are telling about our society all the way up to the point of the cell.

I'd say it's pretty easy to not get picked up for possession. Just keep the pot at home.

So it appears you'd admit it's not really a big deal. Smoking is like someone drinking, just be smart about it. If that's the case, I find it odd that one is completely normalized by society, and it's the worst of the two (arguably), and the other still carries an archaic taboo.

While the felony issue may begin to stray away from the main topic I will say that a felony isn't a permanent hurdle. An individual can find a job that hires felons, fulfill any probation or other required matters, save up enough money to pay everything off, and fill out the paperwork to clear ones name. It is possible to get a felony dropped and be able to vote, own guns, serve in the military, and find work in a field of work that would otherwise not hire felons. And even then, why get down about that? Nothing stops an individual from owning their own business and working for themselves

Personally, I think the statement that the prisons aren't that bad means there shouldn't be much effort to make it better. I disagree with that statement. If you wanted to say, in relation to prisons in third world countries, ours seems better as far as conditions, maybe I could play devils advocate on the side for our prison system. But being locked away into a cell and losing every bit of control over your life will carry some weight no matter the conditions. I think we clearly have a systemic problem with the way we approach justice. Many might think that comes from a place of softness... But in reality, it's a very expensive problem to have. When you lock away large parts of the population at the expense of the tax payers, it adds up. And even if they can find a job when they get out, I'd be willing to bet most of them have to stay on some level of assistance, and aren't true tax producers.

More times than not, I'll view things from a bias close to libertarianism. This system to me is actually really bad... Because I actually agree with you about personal responsibility. Yes, just keep it at home, and if you must carry, know how to hide it or ditch it. But just because I know I could keep my nose clean should I decide to have some vices that could get me in trouble, that doesn't help keep down senseless spending.

I also think that people who think positively of the prison industrial complex like big government and big spending ... Half joking on that last pit just to keep the conversation playful and calm as you sought out in OP.

Cheers, I like your experiment... Let's see how many people can follow the directions lol.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

Conservative Republican here.

I would like to see massive prison reform. We spend a # ton of money keeping non-violent / minor druggies locked up when it would be cheaper to not have them imprisoned. Issue fines, work release programs, enhanced probation, sentenced to work for the state, etc.

Private prisons have to go. Too much incentive for corruption and we have seen it.

For the non-violent offenders, fines and half way houses, state and or federal job corps, etc.

A "don't drop the soap" Federal Prison should only house the worst of the worst, murderers, rapist, violent POS'es.

Prisoners should manufacture products that are vital to national security that are not made in the US any longer. They make min wage that goes into a savings account that they receive upon their release.

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
a reply to: chr0naut

Alright, I would say that is more of an issue with the court system than with the prison system.

I would say that it goes back further than the courts, to the police and to the economic and social factors that tend to direct people into a life of 'survival by criminality'.

I did also mention more than the ethnic imbalance.

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: AutomateThis1

Hi AT1.

Suppose it may be pertinent to ask, at this point : if your opinion has ever changed, yet, about something you have posted an opinion on, here on ATS ?

Would you describe yourself as open-minded ?

Meant to respond to this earlier. But yes, I have had opinions on things shift or change completely due to the information and viewpoints members here have brought forth.

Furthermore, I do believe that I am a rather open-minded individual, and I have admitted to being wrong on occasion when provided with convincing information.

Guh, yall playing hardball now.

Phew.....

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Alright, I'm finding it hard to disagree with your points.

The only thing I can really find any reason to argue against is that I think it's possible that making prisoners more productive could lead to abuse of cheap labor. Especially if it's something like what Infolurker mentioned about using prisoners to make needed commodities.

I suspect it would be quite easy to see for-profit prisons making bank off of nearly free labor, and offering kickbacks to judges and cops for providing such labor.

Also, in regards to Infolurkers comments about prison reform. Does anyone think state/county run jails would fare better? Every single state/county jail I've seen runs on bare minimum funding.

It seems that the only real supporting statement I can contend with is:

"The American prison system is not that bad. Compared to other countries."

Alright. I'm not sure if I can say anyone has successfully made me "change my mind."

Points have been brought up regarding the court system, prison reform, tax, therapy, and recidivism, but I don't feel as though with all of that I can say that the penal system is bad.

Should prison be comfortable? With all of the work programs that offer training and job placement after prison is there any excuse for individuals to not be able to maintain said jobs? Is it a jail problem, or is it really just a people problem?

Are people prone to being jailed and being a repeat offender because society failed them or is it really because jail/prison sets people up for failure?

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: AutomateThis1

Cheers, I like your experiment... Let's see how many people can follow the directions lol.

Thanks, by the way.

Hopefully, I don't wake up tomorrow and read a bunch of off topic comments and arguments amongst participants.
------------------
Please everyone, if you don't agree with the concept put forward in the OP just spectate or ignore.

I think I'll do fun ones during the week, and more serious ones on the weekends.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

Opinion:

My sh!t don't stink.

Discuss.

originally posted by: 35Foxtrot
a reply to: AutomateThis1

Opinion:

My sh!t don't stink.

Discuss.

1) You have a colostomy bag.

2) You are blessed with a 100% efficient digestive system.

3) You aren't human...

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
Opinion:

The American prison system is not that bad.

On the whole, prisons are stupid and expensive.

They should be made as unpleasant a place to exist as possible. The American prison system is a joke as compared to my previous statement. Any 'misbehavior' in the prison environment should be met with capital punishment ... beat those bastards down with a rubber hose filled with lead shot. And, beat them until they feel certain death approaching. After the second beating session ... don't stop on the third.

A prison (if you have one at all) (remember I think they're a stupid idea) should be such an enormous deterrent to societal deviance that only the insane would actually risk incarceration. Then you can call the prison what it actually is: an insane asylum.

The American prison system is such a total failure that it should be scrapped for Frontier Justice until it can be re-thought and figured out right.

Think about how many lives (the end part of people's lives mind you) Bernie Madoff ruined. And he gets to go to jail? And, a country club environment? He stole 65 billion dollars from people like you and me. People who were out of work in retirement. If Jail didn't exist, Bernie would have been made to actually pay for his crimes. He'd be dead and a financial burden on the country no more.

Yep ... the American prison system pretty much sucks.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

Yea, I think there's a healthy medium between some of the super authoritarians who also spend too much in their crusade, and those who think the whole system should be abolished.

I think it just needs to be focused on people who are a serious threat to society. Try to help those who are non violent and haven't really wronged people yet, and hopefully a good amount become producers... Any producers from that would be better than what we have now. We literally lock people up for not paying child support, that's a debtors prison, which by it's very nature spends more money to punish someone for not paying up. And, in that instance, kids grow up without men around, and moms working two jobs. What are going to happen to them?

We could all talk about that forever, but kudos to staying true to the mission and hosting a civil discussion on something for people to just try and calmly talk about.

Cheers, you should do make a thing of this every once in a while. Pick a hot button issue and tell people to be cool in the thread and just talk about the topic at hand... Kind of like how we all used to play around here. Ball, not the player.

Damn, and here I was thinking I deactivated my facebook account.

I mean if I read OP correctly this is essentially making your own personal twitter feed on ATS or am I missing something?

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
You're not doing a very good job of changing my mind so far.

The only way to compete with the commies in China is to have more slave labor in the prison industrial complex.

Nevermind. I wanted to try and bring everyone together by conducting an exercise in which regardless of whatever view people held they would have to try and convince me to change my mind.

I basically wanted to make myself a target and was hoping people would get over their difference and maybe step outside of their comfort zones a little bit.

I'm guessing either people missed the point, didn't want to participate, or just couldn't get over their BS.

It's too bad. I had some fun ones in mind.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

 comfort zones a little bit.

I'm guessing either people missed the point, didn't want to participate, or just couldn't get over their BS

Your opinion is distorted , you're looking at it from your own perspective and applying your own bias to the responses you're reading.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

And that's your opinion.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

I saw the title and I was hoping it was more of a literal mind changing you wanted.

Oh well....

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Hell, at this point anything goes. Only question I have is do I get a new body or a new brain? Or do you have just simple hypnosis in mind?