Iraqi general killed by US at checkpoint.

The fact remains that most Iraqis love their country, love it dearly. It's the cradle of civilization for Christ's sake..hehe no pun intended, honest.

Anyway, most Iraqis want us out of there, and many are actively engaged in pushing us towards the door. Former military units are operating under guerilla rules, that is to say they no longer follow standard military doctrine, and don't gather en masse, but are committed to hamstringing our efforts in any way possible. The civilians store weapons in attics, basements, and garages. Children do surveilance, the elderly make food...

The Iraqis are doing exactly what Americans would be doing if say, China invaded.

There are some Iraqis who buy into the American Democracy propaganda, but most see us as lying thieves, and wouldn't hesitate to put our soldiers and our leaders in unmarked graves.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

That's right! There should be 20 dead Iraqis at every checkpoint every day! (Sorry, your logic is lost on me).

That's ok, my logic is quite easy to follow really if, of course, one doesn't already have one's mind made up.

While sometimes true, past performance does not always predict future outcome. Facts are needed to arrive at the truth. If indeed that's what one is looking for.

Originally posted by Partyof1

That's ok, my logic is quite easy to follow really if, of course, one doesn't already have one's mind made up.

While sometimes true, past performance does not always predict future outcome. Facts are needed to arrive at the truth. If indeed that's what one is looking for.

How eloquently you disguise ignorance...

Lawyers will disagree with you and you should read about this theory 'stare decisis'. In fact what happens int he past will tell the future.

Facts, sure.

By my previous post, we know that US soldiers killing innoecnt people at checkpoints is a measurable phenomenon.

So the facts of interest would be:

1. Are these killings 'acceptable' in some way to US military?

2. What procedures are to be followed at checkpoints?

3. Who made them, and who is responsible for implementing them?

4. How are those procedures implemented to the letter?

5. What are the consequences when these procedures are not followed?

Armed with those facts, you have the accountability for what is perceived by some people as murder, and with that accountability, you bring the remedies and things to prevent deaths at checkpoints in future.

The risk to checkpoint personnel of suicide bombers driving vehicles to checkpoints is a long known and long established risk that has been built exhaustively into procedures. Or has it? Question 6.


[edit on 15-3-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

And Fact:

They keep happening over and over.

This is not acceptable to the people of the world.

Why is it acceptable to the US Army?

- Not made up your mind? -

Make it up. The US could very well stop it but if they
did then they would need new excuses to 'accidently'
take people off their black list.

Hah, moral, virtuous, ethical liberators my royal behind

Originally posted by 00PS

How eloquently you disguise ignorance...

Wow, I must say I'm quite shocked by your accusation. Judging by your past posts you seem to be all in favor of fairness - am I wrong?. Would not waiting for more facts to emerge be prudent in this case? Again, I would agree that it would not if one's mind were already made up.

In fact what happens int he past will tell the future.

Again, oftentimes this is certainly the case, however it is not always the case. Instead of attempting to predict the future, and possibly making a mistake, why not simply accumulate additional information and facts - then make your argument as to "for or against?"

Alas, no quantity of factual information will change the minds of some. The truth is out there as they say. If you really wish to find it.

from OOPS
To hear all these people say the US is the best in the world Militariliy even, and then say 'oh the boys on the ground didn't know'

1st soldier: "Didja get that radio communication?"
2nd soldier: "Yep."
1st soldier: "What time you got?"
2nd soldier: "Twenty hundred."
1st soldier: "Supposed to be an Iraqi general coming through about now. One of our "allies." < snicker>"
2nd soldier: "Looks like him approaching right now."
1st soldier: "Ready? Light 'em up!"

Ok Partyof1 I agree with you,

But let's discuss the facts then. Why is this happening over and over?

Technical Error, Human Error, Media Propaganda disguising American Murder?????

Originally posted by jsobecky

from OOPS
To hear all these people say the US is the best in the world Militariliy even, and then say 'oh the boys on the ground didn't know'

1st soldier: "Didja get that radio communication?"
2nd soldier: "Yep."
1st soldier: "What time you got?"
2nd soldier: "Twenty hundred."
1st soldier: "Supposed to be an Iraqi general coming through about now. One of our "allies." < snicker>"
2nd soldier: "Looks like him approaching right now."
1st soldier: "Ready? Light 'em up!"

Intel Officer: We have a class 4 grade 1 military target tonight
Brig Gen: Yes sir
Intel Officer: Target will be in the vicinity of blah blay at blah blah
Brig Gen: Yes sir
Intel Officer: Standard protocol will be expected in this op
Brig Gen Yes sir
Intel Officer: Any questions
Brig Gen: No sir

Brig Gen: Private!
Private: Yes sir!
Brig Gen: Shoot anything coming down this road 'hear?
Private: Yes sir!

Anyquestions?

Here's a few other checkpoint shootings:

Iraqi Civilians Killed at Checkpoint (March 31 2003)WASHINGTON -- U.S. troops killed seven Iraqi women and children at a checkpoint today when the Iraqis' van would not stop as ordered, a military official said.

Two other civilians were wounded in the incident at a U.S. Army checkpoint on a highway near Najaf in southern Iraq, the official said. The military is investigating, he said.

The dead and wounded were among 13 women and children in a van that approached the checkpoint but did not stop, the official said. Soldiers fired warning shots and then shots into the vehicle's engine, neither of which stopped it, he said.

2 IRAQI CHILDREN KILLED IN CHECKPOINT SHOOTING (April 11 2003)
NASIRIYAH, IRAQ-- U.S. marines killed two children at a checkpoint in Nasiriyah, Iraq Friday when the driver of a minivan failed to stop, sparking fears of a suicide attack.

The driver ignored repeating warnings to stop and, in fact, picked up speed, a spokesman for the marine unit said.

The U.S. military says nine other people in the vehicle were wounded in the incident in the southern Iraqi city.

US troops kill Hungarian in Iraq (November 2003)
"US sources informed the ministry that the car driven by Peter Varga-Balazs approached a checkpoint at high speed... he failed to slow down despite calls to stop and warning shots," the ministry said in a statement.

"Therefore, US troops fired aimed shots at him, causing his death."

US troops 'shoot Arabic TV men' (March 18 2004)
Witnesses said the two men, both Iraqis, were in their car when another vehicle failed to stop at a checkpoint.

US troops then opened fire on both cars, al-Arabiya employees said.

Child is killed in US checkpoint shooting (July 6 2004)
A US military spokesman said: "Soldiers fired on the vehicle after the driver failed to obey verbal and visual instructions to stop, switched off the vehicle lights, and forced guards out of the way as he attempted to bypass the checkpoint."

The statement said the mother and the wounded child were taken to hospital following the shooting on Monday, while the father, who was driving, was questioned by police.

Many Iraqis accuse US soldiers of being too hasty to open fire and of killing many innocent civilians.

US Marine claims unit killed Iraqi civilians
Mr Massey said that in some incidents, Iraqi civilians were killed by between 200 and 500 rounds pumped into four separate cars which each failed to respond to a single warning shot and respond to hand signals at a Baghdad checkpoint.

At the time, US soldiers feared suicide bombers would try to ram checkpoints, he said.

Searches found no weapons in the vehicles or evidence that those killed were anything but innocent civilians, he said.

He also said Marines killed four unarmed demonstrators, and more Iraqis the next day during another spell of checkpoint duty in the occupied Iraqi capital.

"I was never clear on who was the enemy and who was not," said Mr Massey.

"When you don't know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?" asked the former Marine, later honourably discharged from the service with severe depression and post traumatic stress disorder.

Tal Afar shooting (Jan 2005)
The sound of children crying came from the car. I walked up to the car and a teenaged girl with her head covered emerged from the back, wailing and gesturing wildly. After her came a boy, tumbling onto the ground from the seat, already leaving a pool of blood.

“Civilians!” someone shouted, and soldiers ran up. More children—it ended up being six all told—started emerging, crying, their faces mottled with blood in long streaks. The troops carried them all off to a nearby sidewalk.

There's also the Sgrena incident that everyone knows about and I'm sure there's many more that we haven't heard of.

Originally posted by AceOfBase
Here's a few other checkpoint shootings:There's also the Sgrena incident that everyone knows about and I'm sure there's many more that we haven't heard of.

Like the massace of women and children at the bridges
?

Originally posted by AceOfBase
Here's a few other checkpoint shootings:There's also the Sgrena incident that everyone knows about and I'm sure there's many more that we haven't heard of.

Nearly every one of these incidents have something in common: improper and reckless behavior by those approaching the checkpoints. The soldiers have a right to protect their own lives. The Iraqis have a duty to act appropriately when approaching checkpoints.

Originally posted by 00PS
Like the massace of women and children at the bridges?

Are you referring to the innocent civilians that were murdered, mutilated, burned, and hung from the bridges by the mob?

No, those people weren't covered by the Geneva Convention


HAHAHA LOL

Originally posted by jsobecky
The Iraqis have a duty

The only duty the Iraqis have is to expel foreign aggressors.

Down With American Imperialism

I doubt it's a targeted assasination - more likely another example of poor fire discipline from a second-grade occupying force, poorly-led, trained by the IDF that every brown face is a threat and basking in the certainty they'll never be called to account for any action no matter how criminal / irresponsible.

Question you have c. 130K troops in Iraq. We (UK) have c. 10K - how many VCP shootings have the Brits had where innocents / allies have been slotted - AFAIR none. Even allowing for the different force levels the US forces are very, very, 'unlucky'.

PS US forces will never leave Iraq - It's over 65 years sine WW2 started and they're still in UK

Give the guys on the ground a break, they are normal people doing a job and they are afraid for their lives justifiably. I grieve for every single person who dies in Iraq no matter which side they are on. The fact remains however that if you spend a year or so in a hostile environment sheer survival instinct will dictate that you shoot first and question the corpses. Sorry to offend peoples sensibilities but that is reality and most people want to live enough that rather than giving a car the benefit of the doubt they will just open fire.

I would demand that you stop occupying my country hitting me in the face with your balls.

Funniest response I've ever seen here. Milk shot out my nose.

Seriously tho', I'd recommend the book "Generation Kill" to anybody who thinks the USA is just a bunch of imperialist a-holes. In the book, it mentions how some of these guys don't have working comm gear because of incorrect encryption keys, etc. Sure, it's a bad situation in Iraq, but these guys who are fighting over there are not murderers. In any army you'll get a few bad apples, but the US soldiers ARE concerned about Iraq civvies and to say otherwise is stupid.

Anytime you've got fog of war combined with darkness of night, you're going to have mistakes.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by smallpeeps]

Yes agreed but how come it's always American Troops killing innocents?

Face facts you have a p*ss poor Army out there.

Recent reports show the UK forces give the Americans a wide berth where possible they're just too trigger-happy. We've sent demo units with flags and vehicles to US forces (on request) to try and educate your guys what their allies look like! Hardly confidence-inspiring - our flag hasn't changed recently, UK forces couldn't fly more flags on their vehicles and your guys are still confused

US forces recently shot a Bulgarian soldier in a HUMVEE-type vehicle as they thought he was an insurgent. In the British Army there would be an investigation, conviction, and a punishment. In the US army there's always a poor excuse and nothing else.

Your choice it's either poor soldiering or deliberate brutality.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by CTID56092]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

I would demand that you stop occupying my country hitting me in the face with your balls.

Funniest response I've ever seen here. Milk shot out my nose.

Seriously tho', I'd recommend the book "Generation Kill" to anybody who thinks the USA is just a bunch of imperialist a-holes. In the book, it mentions how some of these guys don't have working comm gear because of incorrect encryption keys, etc. Sure, it's a bad situation in Iraq, but these guys who are fighting over there are not murderers. In any army you'll get a few bad apples, but the US soldiers ARE concerned about Iraq civvies and to say otherwise is stupid.

Anytime you've got fog of war combined with darkness of night, you're going to have mistakes.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by smallpeeps]

A few bad apples? How about trained *brainwashed* killers! Try that one on for size.

If they don't get out when they are young and naive then they will become a career killer or supporter of killing!

A few bad apples? How about trained *brainwashed* killers! Try that one on for size.

If they don't get out when they are young and naive then they will become a career killer or supporter of killing!

OOPs you have gone too far with that IGNORANT remark. My cousin has only recently returned from 6 years in the Army. I have friends and co-workers who have done anywhere from 4-12 years in the armed forces and know a handful of veterans from the Vietnam war. And I am sorry to break it to you, none of them are career killers or condone murder in any way, shape, or form. You act as if you have never known anyone who has served in the armed forces. They arent mafia hitmen, or drug pusher, or street gang-members. They are highschool kids looking for opportunities, business owners called up for duty, Father and Mothers as well taken from their families.

Obviously these incidents may be unjustfiable and unforgiveable, but to label these men and women as brainwashed killers is quite ridiculous. Why don't you throw away all your prejudice and stereotypes for one moment and attempt to imagine you were a Father called up for duty. A father who is the only one that can run his busienss back home in order to support his family. It isn't so much an instinct for him to survive for himself, but to make sure his children will not suffer the loss of a parent. It is not so hard to make mistakes in a war zone after almost 2 years constantly dodging bullets and luckily escaping harm from roadside bombs. you'll be damned if you get knocked off by some asshole suicide bomber in a car, therefore you follow the procedure you are meant to follow in order to ensure your survival, and that the security of your fellow soldier who also have families to return to are not compromised.

I have respected your discussions and post in other topics, but please refrain from making such silly opinions that are prone to offend certain people.