It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Riffrafter
i agree, but local floods happen, and have happened all over the globe... whereas there is zero evidence of a world wide flood... and there would be evidence everywhere
Though i also agree who gives a flying f*** anyways
originally posted by: Riffrafter
originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Riffrafter
which also means he technically could have snapped his fingers and corrected what i thought was wrong... ye know instead of drowning the world LOL
fact is the flood didn't happen.. fullstop
If you say so.
As far as I'm concerned - it seems that a mythos that spans thousands of years across multiple different peoples and cultures both writing and talking about it from generation to generation, just might have some basis in fact.
Some modern scholars believe the Sumerian deluge story corresponds to localized river flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other cities as far north as Kish, as revealed by a layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to c. 2900 BCE, which interrupt the continuity of settlement. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (c. 3000–2900 BCE) was discovered immediately below this Shuruppak flood stratum. None of the predynastic antediluvian rulers have been verified as historical by archaeological excavations, epigraphical inscriptions or otherwise, but the Sumerians purported them to have lived in the mythical era before the great deluge.
And it is a mess.
Who has owned the Holyland? From beginnings of civilation to Rome and around 50 CE?
Mesopotamia/River Valleys (East):
This is typical "cradle of civilization"
2900 - 2500 - Sumer
2500 - 2400 - Lagash
2400 - 2330 - Uma
2330 - 2150 - Akkad
2150 - 2000 - Ur (Sumer)
2000 - 1890 - Old Assyria/Neo Sumer (split North/South)
1890 - 1780 - Small states/Babylon
1780 - 1470 - Old Assyria/Babylonia
1470 - 1350 - Babylonia
1350 - 1285 - Middle Assyria/Babylonia
1285 - 1205 - Middle Assyria
1205 - 1190 - Babylonia
1190 - 1143 - Neo Assyria/ Elam
1143 - 1021 - Babylonia
1021 - 846 - Neo Assyria/ Babylonia
846 - 819 - Neo Assyria
819 - 808 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
808 - 724 - Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
720 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Neo Assyria /Neo Babylonian
611 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 483 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
483 - Mesopotamian Revolt
483 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
331 - 328 - Macedonia/Achaemenid Empire
328 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 141 - Hellenistic Era (Ancient Greece)
141 BCE - 118 CE - Parthian
118 - Rome
This is where it gets interesting.
This is the typical "Holyland"
1900 - 1470 - Canaan (formerly Akkadians)
1470 - 1210 - New Kingdom (Egypt)
1210 - 1021 - Phoenicia/12 Tribes
1021 - 796 - Phoenicia/Israel
796 - 783 - Neo Assyria
783 - 769 - Phoenicia/Israel
769 - 733 - Judah/Phoenicia/Israel
733 - 724 - Judah/Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Assyria
720 - 699 - Judah/Neo Assyria
699 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Judah/Neo Assyria
611 - 608 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Babylonian Empire
608 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire
331 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 137 - Hellenistic Era* (Ancient Greece)
137 - 51 - Judea (Herodian Kingdom)
51 BCE - 268 CE - Roman Empire
The most interesting thing is how after Egypt was sent back across the Sinai Pennisula, and Phoenicia reinvented Canaan, out of nowhere came Monotheism but still rewrote similar stories. Just tweaked them to give themselves provenance. Which for the time was an absolute BRILLIANT sociopolitical move.
And all of the above had a flood epic of some sort.
Unfortunately, now I must go after Exodus.
The title baʿal was a synonym in some contexts of the Hebrew adon ("Lord") and adonai ("My Lord") still used as aliases of the Lord of Israel Yahweh. According to some scholars, the early Hebrews did use the names Baʿal ("Lord") and Baʿali ("My Lord") in reference to the Lord of Israel, just as Baʿal farther north designated the Lord of Ugarit or Lebanon. This occurred both directly and as the divine element of some Hebrew theophoric names. However, according to others it is not certain that the name Baal was definitely applied to Yahweh in early Israelite history.
There is so much truth that scientific data can back up if mankind can just turn the red words back to black and refine it for modern knowledge.
That is also the point of this waste of time thread as it were.
Never before have I seen such wide swaths of the human experience explicated, distilled, and encapsulated into it's most profound essence as in this post by Degradation33. A must read!
- a random connoisseur of the succinct
There is a debate as to whether Canaanites and Phoenician should be considered separate cultures. Even Neo-Canaan for Phoenicia could be valid.
My worldview is self styled and lies somewhere between Advaita Vendenta and Hasidic Kallabah in an ultimately deist interpretation that also denies the existence of an afterlife and soul, but holds the workings of nature, the universe, and the balance therein as the emenation of "god".
Baal-Eser I (Beleazarus I, Ba‘l-mazzer I) was a king of Tyre. His father, Hiram I, was a contemporary of David and Solomon, kings of Israel.
It paints the picture of a divine schism that much like a civil war had the former Egyptian subjects disagree on their ways. In the North you had a pantheon with a god that stood above the others, The South gravitated towards the god above the others and dropped the pantheon.
That may be why at the outset of monotheism you saw Ba'al and Yahweh used interchangeably.
"Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one"
I will assume that isn't sarcasm.
Thank you, but to be fair I simply transposed a progressive YouTube map and did my best to make sure that dates checked out.
Effects of the Curvature of the Earth
Because of the curvature of the earth, the horizon drops from where the viewer is standing. However, the drop is proportional to the square of the distance between the viewer and an object on the horizon (Young nd). From these relationships, it can be seen that a tribal chief (or Noah) standing on the deck of a large boat (Ark), perhaps 7.8 meters above the water,would not be able to see the tops of any hills as high as 15 m from as little as 24 km away across flood plains covered with water because the curvature of the earth prevents it (See the Appendix for examples of calculations). Most hills in this region that are as much as 15 m high are more than 95 km away from the river levees. Therefore, the survivors of the Flood could see only water in all directions while they were floating down the Tigris River and over the flood plains. Many of these hills would also be partly covered with water which would make their tops project less above the water level, and therefore, the curvature of the earth would make them disappear from the line of sight in even a shorter distance than 24 km.
Northeast and southwest of the nearly flat surface that contains the two rivers, the topography rises to more than 455 m in Saudi Arabia and in Iran. Calculations show that elevations of 455 m high cannot be seen beyond 86 km away, and these places are more than 160 km from the Euphrates or Tigris Rivers. Therefore, none of the high country in Saudi Arabia or Iran would be visible to a tribal chief (or Noah). On that basis, the "whole world" would definitely appear to be covered with water during the Flood, and that was the "whole world" for the people in this part of southeastern Mesopotamia at that time.
If the 3.4-meter–thick layer of flood deposits in southeastern Mesopotamia (MacDonald 1988) represents a huge flood of ancient times, and if it is the remnants of the one described in the early Babylonian epics, then the authors of these epics were likely survivors who lived in a village on natural levees on the lower parts of either the Euphrates or Tigris Rivers where the flood waters covered their village, natural levees, and adjacent flood plains for distances of 160 to 320 kilometers so that no land could be seen, and their "whole world" would have been under water.
New research finds that a powerful airburst from a meteor colliding with the atmosphere may have wiped out a Bronze Age civilization along the north side of the Dead Sea some 3,700 years ago. While the findings come from the excavation of the Tall el-Hammam archaeological site in Jordan, many believe that the same place was once known as Sodom...
... Samples from the site show that an extremely hot, explosive event leveled an area of almost 200 square miles including the Middle Ghor – a circular plain to the north of the Dead Sea.
“…not only wiping out 100 percent of the Middle Bronze Age cities and towns, but also stripping agricultural soils from once-fertile fields,”
originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: cooperton
For things to have happened as described in Genesis, that amount of fresh water wpuld have also filled the oceans and killed all sea life and wpuld have made the land inarable for generations. Nothing wpuld have survived on land, sea or fresh water. And then there's the whole incest thing if Noah amd his small family were the only lovong humans. Its a scientific impossibility for a world wide flood as described in Genesis.
The Great Flood did in fact happen. But it wasn't from excess water added to the planet. It was "what", was done to the water that was here,