What Does Meaningful Law Enforcement And Criminal Justice Reform Look Like?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: M5xaz
Or is progressive "virtue signalling" more important than people getting shot ?

Funny that you think me, who is a Libertarian, is a Progressive when it was your s****y Republican party which started Progressivism.

I'm for sensible criminal justice reform, the fact that you like to cite the most outlying examples of why it doesn't work shows your are a status quo, big-government authoritarian.

My post history show that I am a LEA supporting conservative.
Your proposed reforms have failed, already cuasing rising crime, despite you ignoring the rising dead as a result.
They are nonsensical and a fantasy.

a reply to: M5xaz

Once again, I'm for sensible criminal justice reform, the fact that you like to cite the most outlying examples of why it doesn't work shows your are a status quo, big-government authoritarian.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: M5xaz

Once again, I'm for sensible criminal justice reform, the fact that you like to cite the most outlying examples of why it doesn't work shows your are a status quo, big-government authoritarian.

News update - The US is a democracy, NOT under authoritarian rule, and never has been, therefore supporting the existing justice system is thus not supporting authoritarianism. QED.

Also, you stating that supporting the existing police ( and military for that matter), standard conservative positions, is somehow supporting big government is just plain false
Child-like arguments.


Finally, rising homicide and crime is not common sense.
Throughout this thread, you have provided zero references and even less proof for the validity of your proposed "reforms"

The fact you support this shows you are not a libertarian but an anarchist

Have a heart for the crime victims, instead

originally posted by: chris_stibrany

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Institute more community policing, i.e. cops walking the beat
Mandatory conflict de-escalation training for all LEO

Especially these two.
Time past, the whole neighbourhood knew good old Jonny Connor the copper because he was the one that walked their particular beat. He knew the kids, knew what was going on. It was good 'boots on the ground intel'

Now they just drive around in their souped up SUVs with their bald heads looking like wannabe thugs. They have NO idea what is going on, and only respond to calls from a dispatcher miles away. Totally stupid.

Why doesn't patrol, actually patrol?

Totally agree. I have actually personally observed community policing making a significant positive difference within a community, while simultaneously observing the lack of community policing in similar demographics having drastic negative consequences. I would much rather see local domestic tranquility ensured, than cells filled and revenue for the state ensured.

originally posted by: TREESNAKE1111
End civil forfeiture.

Totally agree. Talk about inspiring contempt! This method is so often abused.

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

I'll give you a few:

Eliminate police unions
Lower/eliminate sentences for non-violent offenses
Reform the bail process because (hope you like alliteration) it putatively punishes poor people
End for profit prisons
Institute more community policing, i.e. cops walking the beat
Mandatory conflict de-escalation training for all LEO

Hear Hear



I watched Stacey Dooley Face To Face with the Bounty Hunters not sure if you will be able to view if you are in the USA but it shows how much money is being made rather than reform or even rehabilitation, its just a money making scheme

again i agree end prison for minor offences such as possesion of weed

the use of the prison population as cheap labour needs to end, making more jobs on the outside

Thanks for your input. Though I have not yet watched the video, I don't need to to recognize that what you're saying is true, and holds true here in the states as well. So much of our law enforcement and criminal justice activity amounts to revenuing for the state, and does absolutely nothing to promote the general welfare or ensure domestic tranquility. In fact, most of this revenuing activity just makes the problem worse with the real world consequences to ordinary people's lives that this abuse of power creates. It should be criminal.

I agree with your other points as well.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Good start. Tack onto those.

-Eliminate all Military equipment. A civilian police force doesn't need MRAPS or any other military gear. It might stop the police from using no knock warrants. Some studies have shown that it also reduces violence in police.

-Eliminate any seizure powers. This has been abused in the past.

-Decriminalize drug possession. If you get caught with drugs they just take it away from you.

Totally agree on the last two. I'd say I mostly agree on the first recommendation, though not completely. Interesting thought that military equipment for police may increase the tendency toward police brutality. I want to see law enforcement properly equipped, but I'd like to see that equipment used less, like rarely and only in specific circumstances. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part though, that restraint would actually be regularly exercised in the use of such equipment. Perhaps you are correct then to suggest that they shouldn't have access to this type of equipment at all.

I also think it's important to note the incentives that accompany such gifting of military equipment to police departments, as well. Isn't there a set of draconian federal guidelines that accompany those grants? That concerns me more than the equipment itself.

originally posted by: AttitudeProblem

a reply to: TheBadCabbie


What does meaningful criminal justice reform look like

Inevitably the technocrats will virtue signal to have the undesirables shipped off to a different planet and ruled by the most psychopathic among them...

oh wait...

Calls to mind the Clutch lyrics, which recommendations seem more sensible by the day: "Get out! Eject! Escape from the prison planet!" Guess I'd better get to work on that flying saucer.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Ok commie

Hit and run, eh? Poor form, sir, poor form.

originally posted by: beyondknowledge
Why only solve part of the problem? Some of the laws need to be removed and some just changed a little.

Why is it illegal in most states to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket?

I don't understand exactly what you're suggesting here. Elaborate, please.

Police State measures outlawed by Common Law Peoples' Assembly as people empowered to resist

In response to the increasingly repressive COVID regulations and the threat of mandatory vaccinations, a citizens' Common Law Assembly on Canada's west coast has passed a Bylaw that outlaws and nullifies all COVID restrictions, masking, distancing, medical testing and vaccinations. Anyone forcing these measures on the people of Parksville and Qualicum Beach can now face fines and imprisonment in a local Common Law Court.

Kevin Annett has been onto some of the corruption issues for a while. Some parts of Canada have implemented by laws that outlaw any covid restrictions.

originally posted by: kwakakev
The judicial system in current form does appear to protect the perceptions of high profile individuals. Public shame can be more influential in correcting bad behaviour than cash payouts with non disclosure agreements.

I can understand being a judge is a tough job and does require some protections for the role. A full blanket immunity when there are serious conflicts of interests and perversion of law is going too far.

Thanks for your input. That's interesting, tell me more please. I noticed the video that you posted, and I haven't watched it yet, but will soon. I'll try to get back to you with my thoughts on it. Tell me though please, in your opinion, what does meaningful reform look like here?

originally posted by: SaturnFX

Theres always one in a crowd of course

But I actually like the idea of people countering everything...its how common sense middlegrounds are reached. Sure, some things sound good on paper but in practice there are pitfalls and issues, so you need agatators and devils advocates that will highlight how even the best of intentions can be corrupted.

Thanks for your input. I wanted to ask you your thoughts on AM's first three suggestions, which I thought were interesting, but felt as though I should hear more of the reasoning behind them before embracing them wholeheartedly:

Eliminate police unions
Lower/eliminate sentences for non-violent offenses
Reform the bail process because (hope you like alliteration) it putatively punishes poor people

I'd like to hear your thoughts, if you've the time and inclination to share them. Why should I support and/or advocate for these reforms?

originally posted by: TXRabbit
Random, recurring drug testing (specifically for 'Roids/PEDS).
Would love to see a working whistleblower process for anonymous reporting of illegal or unconstitutional behavior. It would have to be carefully designed though so as not to be used as a tool for targeting just any cop.
I agree with the items Augustus mentioned earlier in the thread

Thanks for your input. Roids testing. That's a great idea. I really like the whistleblower process idea as well, though I'm not sure what that looks like being implemented in a way that renders it functional and doesn't create a perestroika(?) like situation. You know, you've got misguided SJW/political officer types, running the show badly and making the situation worse or something like that; or perhaps instead of solving the problem just re-arranges the heirarchy and the corrupt behavior continues unabated, perhaps even worsened. I dunno. Thoughts? What does meaningful reform look like here? What is the proper mechanism or rule change to effectively police the police? Who watches the watchers, and then who watches them? and then who etc., etc...

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Kevin Annertt has been racked over the coals for speaking up. A big part of exposing the abuse by the Church and Government against children. I give him 5 stars in this spiritual war. For more info:

murderbydecree.com...

originally posted by: vonclod
Unions need to go.

It seems like a sensible notion at first glance, but I'd like to be convinced. Tell me more, please.

No more fishing expeditions..ie need cause/reason to yank someone! No more civil forfeiture(see fishing expeditions)
Probably need to look at drug crimes, also probably need less dumb laws.

Agree completely.

How about malpractice insurance?

That is a simplistic start, just scratching the surface..

This also seems like an interesting and possibbly beneficial reform at first glance, but I'd like to be convinced. Tell me more, please.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Stopping the Police from being dog catchers and doing the job of the social work department's

And not having the largest prison population in the world compared to the size of your population springs to mind.

It does not mean not going after real criminals.

I'd tend to agree with your assessment and suggestions. Tell me though please, what does meaningful reform look like with all of that? How do we get from where we are now to there, in your opinion?

originally posted by: DeadlyStaringFrog
All of this defend the police crap is just that, crap. There is a portion of society that does not want to live by its rules. At what point do you decide that a crime isn't worth arresting someone over. Non violent offenders is misleading too. I enjoy looking at the arrest records of local people that make the news. What I've found is drug offenders, besides the drugs, also tend to steal and be violent. The prosecutors are so lenient with their plea deals that felonies get dropped to disorderly conduct with probation only. This means that in the end they are considered non violent because they weren't convicted on the violent charge. Pandering to the criminals is only going to make it worse.

I do agree however that a big city needs to hurry up, defend the police, and get their army of social workers responding to 911 calls. I wonder how many social workers will need to be injured or die before that nonsense comes to an end.

Interesting sentiments. I think it's important to note on the drug score that our drug laws socialize drug users into the criminal element as a matter of course. In a way we create part of our own problem with our drug laws. Drug users who might not have otherwise committed other crimes will live in cultures that encourage other criminal behavior because of the way we've decided to deal with the problem as a society.

Anyhow, okay, don't defund the police, got it. Social workers won't help at all, and will wind up as cannon fodder? Not so sure that I agree with you on that one. There are probably lots of situations where a regular guy could go in and produce a much better outcome than a police officer, and cuffs, and jail, and charges, and probation that gets violated, and voila! another repeat customer.

Like some of the others said, maybe he just needs a detox, or his meds. Lots of people fall through the cracks. Personally, I'd like to see more private solutions to this kind of stuff. For profit charities and such.

What do you think though? Aren't there any changes we could make for the better from what we have now? You seem to have some passionate opinions about this stuff. Surely there are some beneficial changes you can recommend.

originally posted by: M5xaz
News update - The US is a democracy...

The United States is not a democracy, you don't even know what form of government you live under.

Also, you stating that supporting the existing police ( and military for that matter), standard conservative positions, is somehow supporting big government is just plain false

Not supporting a smaller government is supporting a bigger one, it isn't difficult.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Your support for anarchy is not libertarianism

And,

Less police+coddling CRIMINALS= more crime.... it isn't difficult....

.........but I know, I know, you need to virtue signal and all that.....

Please Join the Constitutional Sheriffs & Peace Officers Association -- Everyone Is Eligible!


This is a short video where Robert David Steele quickly briefs and links to another longer video. Looks like a practical option to consider for Meaningful Law Enforcement And Criminal Justice Reform.

originally posted by: M5xaz

Your support for anarchy is not libertarianism

Police/criminal justice reform is not anarchy, it's small government Libertarianism.

Fauxservatives like to preach small government but never make it smaller.

I'll tell you what is DISGUSTING. Above top secret.com will make endless threads victim blaming blacks killed by police but won't make a single thread about SLC police shooting a 13 year old white boy with autism. What's up with that?!?!!!!!

a reply to: game over man

What's up with that?!?!!!!!

You have an account. Why don't you start a thread if you think it is important? So many messed up issues in this world it is hard to keep up with all of them.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: M5xaz

Your support for anarchy is not libertarianism

Police/criminal justice reform is not anarchy, it's small government Libertarianism.

No it's not, it is anarchy, witness the surging crime in NYC and liberals (like you, total false libertarians - actually the opposite) like you deserting the city after the policies they voted for were implementented and rendered NYC a crime haven.

Fail !

a reply to: M5xaz

You love your hyperbole, I'll give you that. I guess someone needs to slurp the fascist goodness off of the government's boot, it sure is hell isn't going to be me.

OCUMENTARY: LAST-FLAG-STANDING.


This takes a bit of a different angle on the issues of justice reform. It involves cleaning up the language used in contract law to remove its ambiguity. There has been a long ongoing saga with Russell Jay Gould, some of it I am not fully sure about. The general premise of a now time, quantum language based in fact does look to be a good start. A language style that does translate accurately across languages has a lot of benefit in removing ambiguity from the legal system.

When Bill Clinton can use "it depends on how you define 'is'?" as a valid legal argument, something has gone off the rails.

Wow a rational POST On ATS I am amazed .
Well Ill add my 2 cents . Why do alot of people commit crimes because The path of least Resistance .
What does that mean ? well Stealing a car is alot easier then working for a year to buy a car .
As it is now first offence you get at most 6 months free room and bord to some .

The key is making the crime TO EXPENSIVE . So instead of Just jailing them You have it so they have to pay THE VICTIM
The cost of ALL incurred Losses Including the value of the car .

To do This they get a job while reporting to law enforcement ( just as they do NOW /. BUT half the money made GOES to the Victim they get out when the dept is payed

And STOP having the county Take that Money for them selfs !
Now when someone thinks about dealing a car a radio what every they will be thinking I get cought it will cost me Twice as MUCH In money paying it back .


This would only work with theft related crimes and FOR ONCE the VICTIM will be the ones who BENEFITS .

tell me how you benefit when someone steals Your car NOW ? they go to jail how does THAT benefit YOU ? It may benefit your nebier who wont get his stolen But your out of luck .

this way It benefits YOU and your nabier pluse gives a person second thoughts to theft .

originally posted by: EverythingsWrong
Our officer over here wear chest cameras, each pd can have a central command where camera are live feed at all times, time to start using military tech not just the weapons.

Body cams. Body cams hold the promise of protecting the public from police abuse of power, but I've often wondered if there might not be unintended consequences from widespread adoption of this equipment. If all crimes that are digitally witnessed were prosecuted, I'd speculate that you'd see a sharp rise in prosecution rates. Removing officer discretion is one potential unintended negative consequence that I see the possibility of, so I thought I should mention it. I agree that there are major pros to the practice as well, and that the pros SEEM to outweigh the cons...

Sleeping gas canisters instead of tear gas, put them to sleep no aggression then.

It's an interesting thought, but I'd guess the cons outweigh the pros on this one. You're just trading one poison for another, and you add the likely side effects of an incapacitating chemical weapon to the fallout.

Our officers over here don’t have to deal with such a great threat of perps carrying firearms. If a suspect is possibly carrying a fire arm then swat team is called in.

Lethal force should be used less here in the states, couldn't agree more. I think we could have our guys keep their guns and still do that, but we don't. This concerns me greatly. I hesitate to comment here in too much detail because it's a complex issue in my opinion as to what the problem is and what meaningful reform looks like. I'd imagine though that most of us would agree that failure to properly follow instructions should not be grounds for summary execution.

More accountability of the superiors - if the bosses are in danger of being jailed for those under them they will clamp down on unlawful policing methods.

Perhaps. I think we need to re-evaluate whether and how we hold all law enforcement accountable. That's a complex subject too I think. I think departmental policy that tends to roll over peoples' rights should stop, as these practices inevitably rope victims into the criminal justice system that wouldn't be there if their constitutional rights had been respected. It inspires contempt.

If people want police reform the first thing that is required is respect for the police. For the last 20 years all we hear is fk the police. Remember people in bad times it’s these guys and gals that save our lives by putting theirs on the line maybe we take that aspect for granted.

I agree completely. I also think it's important to note that our LEO's need to comport themselves in a manner deserving of the public's respect. The good image of the protector hero can be overpowered by the bad image of the thug with a badge that railroaded you in an instant by a bad actor. This must not be tolerated if the authorities want to cultivate respect from the public. I don't think it's ever earned in everyone's eyes, but it can be demonstrated to the eyes of most, if the authority is wise in the application of their power.

Ban all rap music that instigates aggression to the police, after all you go around blasting about killing and gun culture the police will expect you to have a gun and be willing to kill them.

Whatever dude. We're not banning anyone's free speech anytime soon, at least I hope not. Totally disagree. Let the ragers rage, let the angry poets write angry poems. It helps to keep us culturally genuine. We don't want to suppress that by stomping on dissenting voices.

Treat everyone equal. Just because someone is from a poor neighbourhood doesn’t make them worse than the rich, Remember it’s the rich driving the crime of the underprivileged.

Agree with the first part, disagree with the implied condemnation of wealthy folks part.

Get the police out more into the community, find out how sh!t life really is for those they arrest.

Agree. I like community oriented policing. I've seen first hand how it can curb misapplication of force and create more effective policing within a local area.

Create elite squads similar to our flying squad for the worse criminals and hit them hard. The problem at the minute is there are some serious bad asses out there and the police are trained in how to deal with these, problem is that’s the level they treat everyone because they have this idea they cannot be seen as weak. Maybe community attitude has driven this.

I think that's an interesting thought. Thanks for sharing.

And finally stop bullish!tying on the issue. Each community must address its own issue, stop fking killing each other and makes gangs illegal.

I think we're already there with the gang laws. I'm not so sure that it has helped us any, but there are lots of extra laws for someone who gets in trouble and also hangs out with the 'wrong' people.

Thanks for your input. Interesting thoughts. If there's anything else you'd like to contribute to the discussion, please do.