A direct attack against We The People

a reply to: TheRedneck

I do know better. I appreciate the information about how “inaccurate” you think the data is, but I hate to tell you that you are falling victim to a psyop campaign meant to detach you from science and reality.

The Russians did the same thing back in the day in their own country. They discredited the idea that there is objective truth so that they can lie without being held accountable, just like Trump does.

The data analysis program I was using models virus spread based on the virus parameters we have available to us from our data. It also models virus spread with regards to different social distancing or school closure policies.

I guarantee you using that modeling software will give me a more accurate idea than you pulling opinions out of your ass. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than nothing.

As for testing, if you are truly interested in getting the virus under control, I would recommend more testing and more contact tracing and isolation.

You seem more interested in covering for Trumps reputation by covering up numbers than solving the problem of the virus spreading.

Of course I am against those examples you gave of data being falsified. False data makes data analysis harder. I’m also against Trump’s recent success with hiding new COVID data.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I do agree that the data we have about the virus isn’t perfect but it’s better than nothing. You have to work with what you are given.

You seem to have an “all-or-nothing” attitude like refusing to wear a mask even if it is 99% effective just because of that 1% failure rate - yet not wearing a mask is 0% effective and has a 100% failure rate. Yes, these are just example numbers, not real data. But your philosophy is lacking.

Even so, I will look into these data problems, which I have already heard of. Yes, I know the data on this virus isn’t perfect. But you want to throw it out when it is still usable.

One possibility is that there are many, many asymptotic cases that aren’t being found so that might reduce the death rate. But data scientists are already aware of stuff like that.

Look, if you’re interested, ask me some questions and I’ll reply, do some research and link you to studies and other articles this time. I also have a friend who is in the medical profession and in charge of my county’s COVID response. She is very intelligent and scientific and actually started out with the “just-a-flu” attitude until she had to start dealing with the reality in my county.

a reply to: darkbake

I do know better. I appreciate the information about how “inaccurate” you think the data is, but I hate to tell you that you are falling victim to a psyop campaign meant to detach you from science and reality.

Apparently you don't. Bad data is no better than no data. There is an expectation that some amount of contamination of data can be corrected in an analysis, but the more corrupt the data is the harder it is to obtain meaningful results. In the case of this virus, the data bears little if any resemblance to the reality.

I do believe this is intentional. If the data were accurately analyzed, it would become quickly apparent that we were all lied to.

The Russians did the same thing back in the day in their own country. They discredited the idea that there is objective truth so that they can lie without being held accountable, just like Trump does.

Donald Trump has corrupted no data that I am aware of. The data has been corrupted by the media's biased reporting, conflicting CDC guidelines and policies that promote falsification with monetary gain, and several local Democrat-led governments in major cities. Need I remind you that almost half of the deaths in New York were a direct result of Cuomo forcing infected patients into nursing homes that were unprepared and unable to handle them? And yet, these numbers are reported without any consideration to their bias.

Methinks you are the one being hornswoggled.

The data analysis program I was using models virus spread based on the virus parameters we have available to us from our data. It also models virus spread with regards to different social distancing or school closure policies.

Nice. Now, what are the assumptions in your model? How are you determining the various mathematical relationships? How are you compensating for data which is so corrupted?

I guarantee you using that modeling software will give me a more accurate idea than you pulling opinions out of your ass. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than nothing.

No, it's as good as nothing. As I already said, Garbage In = Garbage Out, aka GIGO. One cannot retrieve information from data which is not in the data.

As for testing, if you are truly interested in getting the virus under control, I would recommend more testing and more contact tracing and isolation.

Actually, what we need is a truly randomized sampling of individuals in specific areas of interest. Our present samples only provide data for symptomatic patients until a few weeks ago, than still primarily for symptomatic patients since individuals tend to only become concerned about testing when they think they may be infected.

I fail to see how contact tracing (a direct violation of privacy) and isolation (deemed cruel and unusual punishment by the US Supreme Court) are going to produce any data that randomized testing did not.

You seem more interested in covering for Trumps reputation by covering up numbers than solving the problem of the virus spreading.

You are the one who brought Trump into this conversation. Tell me, does your model adjust for your own bias against the President?

Of course I am against those examples you gave of data being falsified. False data makes data analysis harder. I’m also against Trump’s recent success with hiding new COVID data.

False data makes accurate analysis impossible. I would think somewhere among all those degrees, someone would have mentioned that to you. Ah, well, better late than never. Next time maybe you'll find a school that actually teaches the subject matter.

I would like to know what data is being hidden by the President, please.

TheRedneck

a reply to: darkbake

I do agree that the data we have about the virus isn’t perfect but it’s better than nothing. You have to work with what you are given.

I'll remember that next time I need to drive a nail and have a spoon handy.

You have to work within parameters, or you are just playing numerology. If your analysis cannot compensate for the data uncertainty, you are not within parameters.

You seem to have an “all-or-nothing” attitude like refusing to wear a mask even if it is 99% effective just because of that 1% failure rate - yet not wearing a mask is 0% effective and has a 100% failure rate. Yes, these are just example numbers, not real data. But your philosophy is lacking.

A cloth mask, which is what is being allowed, is less than 5% effective. If the purpose is to prevent the spread of a virus, reducing the possibility by 5% is negligible.

Wearing a mask serves no purpose whatsoever unless the wearer is infected. That renders your argument moot, unless you believe all people are infected?

Even so, I will look into these data problems, which I have already heard of. Yes, I know the data on this virus isn’t perfect. But you want to throw it out when it is still usable.

I disagree it is usable. There is a difference. You seem to want to ignore the problems with the data. That is more dangerous to an analysis than throwing out questionable data.

One possibility is that there are many, many asymptotic cases that aren’t being found so that might reduce the death rate. But data scientists are already aware of stuff like that.

Yes, scientists are. You're not.

I am aware of it. Recent data indicates that the number of asymptomatic cases may have been initially underestimated by as much as 10:1. Maybe that's got something to do with why every single model produced so far has been proven inaccurate.

Look, if you’re interested, ask me some questions and I’ll reply, do some research and link you to studies and other articles this time. I also have a friend who is in the medical profession and in charge of my county’s COVID response. She is very intelligent and scientific and actually started out with the “just-a-flu” attitude until she had to start dealing with the reality in my county.

Thank you, but I have no questions. If you have information I am always ready to listen to it. Helpful hint: "Trump bad man!" is not what I consider information; if you want me to take you seriously at all, you'll have to drop that attitude.

This is more than "just a flu." It has a component which is indeed scary: it is both a respiratory and a blood virus. Initial symptoms, when they appear, are respiratory, like a flu. If this virus breaks across the lung-blood barrier (as seems to happen with the vast majority of intubated patients), it can attack and disable the hemoglobin in red blood cells. The patients then die from something rarely seen: acute anemia. The organs most affected vary, I assume based on the health of the patient overall, masking the anemia as various organ failures.

Luckily, very few are susceptible to that extent. Those who are need extreme caution practiced around them; for them, this is as deadly as ebola. That is not a reason to decree illegally that everyone must wear face masks, nor a reason to illegally close entire sections of the economy.

I just want a little reason.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

TP

DP

a reply to: TheRedneck


I’m sorry you think I’m uneducated, once again, you will be the one to suffer because you refuse to believe the truth about the virus.

I asked my friend what she thinks about how accurate the data is. Covid analysis is her profession. Unless you are more interested in pulling opinions out of your ass than asking an expert. I’ll let you know what I find out. I am inquiring because you brought it up.

Where is your proof that cloth masks are only 5% effective? Do you have a source? Have you considered how effective they are at preventing spread from a sick person wearing a mask to a healthy person without one? It isn’t just about keeping yourself safe but the effect on society and viral spread on the whole.

You want to know what information Trump is hiding? He recently ordered hospitals to stop sending data to the CDC and in addition, prevented the CDC from testifying to congress about the dangers of opening up schools.

Yes, there is a reason we are wearing masks and shutting down the economy. It makes a HUGE difference on viral spread and keeps hospitals from being over-capacity.

You want to whine like a baby because your civil rights are being violated by wearing a mask? You’ve got to be kidding me.

If you are really worried about civil rights, you should be criticizing Trump for kidnapping protestors in Portland and throwing them into unmarked vans.

It’s entirely constitutional and a health and safety issue. Seat belts are mandatory, let’s not forget. And it certainly doesn’t hurt you to wear a mask.

Refusing to wear a mask makes you seem like an entitled American with no concept of being responsible.

Are you an idiot? My argument does not merely consist of “Trump bad” in fact, “bad” is hardly descriptive or useful information. Instead, my point was that ignoring science will result in mishandling the Covid outbreak.

You think I’m being critical just because I hate Trump? Look, I liked Trump at first because he was standing up to extremist liberal censorship. This is about WAY more than being biased against Trump.

a reply to: darkbake

I’m sorry you think I’m uneducated

I don't think you're uneducated. I think you are unaware. There's a difference. I have known quite a few well-educated people in my life who were inept at everything they tried. The smartest man I have ever known had a sixth-grade formal education and could do anything he set his mind to. Do not confuse a degree with capability or intelligence.

Where is your proof that cloth masks are only 5% effective?

*sigh* This has already been posted once, but just for you... link

Incidentally, it not "proof"... it is "evidence." Anyone working in analytics needs to know the difference.

You want to know what information Trump is hiding? He recently ordered hospitals to stop sending data to the CDC and in addition, prevented the CDC from testifying to congress about the dangers of opening up schools.

I showed you mine, now you show me yours. Link, please?

Yes, there is a reason we are wearing masks and shutting down the economy. It makes a HUGE difference on viral spread and keeps hospitals from being over-capacity.

No hospital has been overwhelmed; no one has been denied a hospital bed; no one in need has been denied an ICU bed; no one in need of a ventilator has gone without (although the ventilators themselves seem to be responsible for many of the deaths).

You want to whine like a baby because your civil rights are being violated by wearing a mask? You’ve got to be kidding me.

No, I'm not kidding you. My rights. You can't have 'em... at least not without a fight.

It’s entirely constitutional and a health and safety issue. Seat belts are mandatory, let’s not forget. And it certainly doesn’t hurt you to wear a mask.

Where in the Constitution? I'd really like to see that.

Oh, and I don't wear seat belts either.

Refusing to wear a mask makes you seem like an entitled American with no concept of being responsible.

Surprise! I am an American! I am entitled to my human rights! As far as being responsible... I do believe I have shown much more responsibility in my life than you... based on this conversation thus far. I take responsibility for my actions rather than expect some government decree to take it for me.

Are you an idiot? My argument does not merely consist of “Trump bad” in fact, bad is hardly descriptive. Instead, I aid out ways that ignoring science will result in mishandling the Covid outbreak.

It certainly includes "Trump bad." You can't go two posts without mentioning how bad he is.

As for you laying out anything that concerns science, so far I have seen nothing scientific from your posts. All I see are claims that you can turn completely corrupted data into useful information... which is exactly wrong, again, for the umpteenth time.

TheRedneck

I just want a little reason.

TheRedneck

For that to work, we need to be able to agree on facts. And Trump nuked that possibility. The very semblance of objective truth has been destroyed in the U.S. under his watch.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I also happen to be intelligent as well as educated, believe it or not. Would a regular student go for such a strange mix of education? I don’t need your approval to know my own strengths and weaknesses accurately.

As for the accuracy of the data, I have asked an expert about your claim that it is unusable. I will certainly get back to you.

No hospital has been overwhelmed yet because we have shut down the economy and done social distancing.

Let’s talk about freedom. Do you have the freedom to shoot your enemy in cold blood? No, because the constitution is a reasonable document and understands that freedom has limits.

I guess you are really unaware of current events. I’ll get you those links once I’m on my laptop instead of phone.

a reply to: darkbake

You seem more interested in covering for Trumps reputation by covering up numbers than solving the problem of the virus spreading. 

Profound words, that is exactly what is happening. Somehow trump in all his Deceipt has convinced his loyal supporters the virus isn't a threat to our way of life.

#ing unreal.

a reply to: darkbake

For that to work, we need to be able to agree on facts. And Trump nuked that possibility. The very semblance of objective truth has been destroyed in the U.S. under his watch.

Yes, we need to agree on facts. Yes, under the Trump administration data has been thoroughly corrupted. However, I have yet to see a link to any evidence that Trump did anything to corrupt the data himself, much less that he "nuked that possibility."

I also happen to be intelligent as well as educated, believe it or not.

What I believe in that respect is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you have made statements that you cannot back up. How do I know this? Because if you could, you'd be receiving your Nobel Prize for your work with data analysis.

As it is, you still haven't answered my very basic questions about your model.

As for the accuracy of the data, I have asked an expert about your claim that it is unusable. I will certainly get back to you.

If you wish. I'm not overly concerned about it. I know what I have seen and read, from multiple sources, not all agreeing with each other, and I will continue to watch for new relevant information.

No hospital has been overwhelmed yet because we have shut down the economy and done social distancing.

You cannot show that. We have a correlation between our policies and the results, but correlation does not equal causation. it is just as possible that our efforts made no difference and we never would have been overwhelmed.

That is (another) unscientific statement.

Let’s talk about freedom.

OK. Do you know what it is?

ETA: It's been fun trying to educate you, but I find myself growing sleepy. Thanks for helping me overcome the insomnia. Have fun finding those links.

TheRedneck

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Profound words

I'm sure you think so.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I understand about being sleepy. I’m headed to bed soon but will try to remember to get back to you tomorrow. It is good to hear your perspective because these days hardly anyone tries to understand both sides.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Oh, Trump nuked the possibility of agreeing on facts about anything, not just the virus. He is trying to promote a false narrative about nearly everything while accusing those who tell the truth of lying. It’s a strategy of his. I think it’s called gaslighting. At any rate, it is dangerous for our national security. He is also trying to destroy our trust in science and institutions.

It actually mirrors communist Russian strategies quite well, which may or may not be a coincidence. I think Russia is trying to get us to engage in civil war and figured out that the way to do it is destroy the concept of objective truth so that no one can agree on anything. But that is something I have no proof of.

However, I may also dig up an intelligence report on Russian strategies involving this matter to share with you later. I think it’s important you understand the big picture here of why you are being told to not trust science. You are more than likely being manipulated.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: American-philosopher

I get it, this is America. You can’t be forced to give a crap about other human beings. If you want to maybe kill someone by refusing to do the smart thing and wear a mask, you’re free to do that.

What you don’t do, is show up en masse elbow to elbow at a city council meeting yelling and breathing on each other during a pandemic. If these people were only hurting themselves by being idiots, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Do you.

The issue is that they aren’t just putting themselves at risk. Their decision is putting everyone else at risk too. And on top of that they’re acting like Grade-A douchebags while they’re doing it. They act like they’re fighting for their freedom, but what they’re really doing is acting like entitled idiots. Who confuse an inconvenience with oppression.

Have you just decided to obey your masters and not rethink anything they say? The last few weeks have been a barrage of studies saying COVID is hardly airborne spread, masks haze no effect on stopping it but dumb mask habits likey spread it, it makes people slow and dumb driving in cars cuz of the heightened doses of CO2.....I mean, hasn't the whole wear masks or you're killing us and you will die crap been debunked? You know the world as a whole is nearly over this fiasco? You probably think the US leads the world in cases too don't you cuz you don't listen..

The best part about this mask virtue signaling is that I see at least 80% of the "mask wearers" who technically are trying to wear a mask but they have their nose completely uncovered, this includes the MAJORITY of workers who are "wearing masks". It's just too funny and completely useless. This is a fact, if you don't see it, you are not looking. People are stupid lazy sheep.

a reply to: darkbake

It actually mirrors communist Russian strategies quite well, which may or may not be a coincidence. I think Russia is trying to get us to engage in civil war and figured out that the way to do it is destroy the concept of objective truth so that no one can agree on anything. But that is something I have no proof of.

I will submit that China seems to be more involved in that strategy than Russia... not that such absolves Russia should they be involved.

I do agree that there is a campaign underway to obscure facts.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Profound words

I'm sure you think so.

TheRedneck

I also think you're not fit to be a moderator here on this site and diminish the site with personal attacks like this.

I posted this in another thread.

originally posted by: panoz77
Look, they don't know how to wear masks in the UAE either.

From the live stream. Only two of the five are wearing them properly. Goes to show you that stupid is universal. By stupid, I mean "wearing" masks in the first place. Kinda shows how useless it is, no?