Blackface vs Womanface

originally posted by: igloo
a reply to: Boadicea

What a great question! Always like your thoughtful posts.

I suspect it is because our culture still holds men to be somewhat superior to women. Blackface might offend a black man, whereas nobody seems to care if drag is mocking, not of women biologically but of the feminine.

Yes, men -- and their opinions -- do seem to be the default in society. Not entirely off-topic, I saw a Tweet this morning with a pic of a committee to discuss maternity issues... a dozen or so men and one woman. It's mind-boggling to me. I don't even know why any man would want to be on such a committee... but what do I know? I'm just a woman

I have a gay friend who owned a drag club back in the 70's with his partner. They put on huge shows and while his end of it was mostly electrical, lighting and sound, I can glean from his stories that at the time the concept of drag developed because it allowed them access to the feminine side of nature....

That makes sense to me. An appreciation for colors, textures, affects, etc., that are considered feminine and so best expressed as a feminine form of themselves.

In high school, some of my friends did a Pointer Sisters air band thing in blackface and they did it because they loved the song never to mock blackness. I hope it doesn't come back to bite them now, kinda unfair as times were different and they were about 17 years old at the time.

I hope not too. This is just collecting grievances -- whether intended or not. People do silly things and thoughtless things and insensitive things without intending any harm. It's okay to say, "Hey, that's not cool," and explain why, but to hold it against them forever isn't justified or reasonable.

Just my thoughts first thing in the morning, first cup of coffee.

And much appreciated!!!

a reply to: IAMTAT

Like Bigfoot...Women are permitted to communicate by banging on logs.

When I was married, my grandmother gave me a wood rolling pin and a large cast iron skillet for banging... but not logs!

originally posted by: SaturnFX

Generally speaking, being a woman..or rather, looking like a woman (as in makeup, dress, etc) is all social constructs. take off the makeup, cut the hair, wear baggy jeans and you won't be representing societal views of a woman (You'll still most likely look female though unless you start glueing hair to your face).

But if we're talking social constructs, then we are also talking stereotypes -- not reality! And in particular, a man's version of these stereotypes. Most women are not dressed to the nine's every day. Most women dress appropriate to their activities, which are seldom glamorous or sophisticated. So doesn't this just reinforce the demeaning and degrading nature of it?

Being black isn't something you try to work on...black people don't smear blackness on them in the morning...its just how they look, naked, dressed, etc.

No, but Blackface performances depict more than just a body with Black skin; it depicts a character, and often a demeaning or degrading character, such as a cotton picker or an Uncle Tom historically, and a gangbanger or a rapper today. Again, portraying stereotypes.

a reply to: Lysergic

I don't care ether way personally.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: Lysergic

I don't care ether way personally.

Should there be some what of leniency if its joke performed by a comedian?

White Chicks was hilarious.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: Boadicea

Blackface has a terrible dark history.

drag does not. Or at least not one that I am aware of.

This is very sadly true.

But it also seems that modern "Blackface" is not the same mocking and degrading nature as it once was, and at the same time drag seems to become increasingly mocking and degrading towards women. And of course not all drag performances.

I would say it's up to the people being mocked to decide how they feel.
I don't see large groups of women coming out against drag? Unless I missed that.

a reply to: Lysergic

I think all jokes performed by professional comedians should be ok.

But I don't think that my opinion is the majority.
And since I live in a democracy I must adhere to the majority.

a reply to: scraedtosleep

I would say it's up to the people being mocked to decide how they feel.

I agree, understanding as well that even those being mocked will have different opinions about it. And it will also depend in large part in how it's done, not just what is being done.

I don't see large groups of women coming out against drag? Unless I missed that.

I think that's probably because those women aren't paid attention to and just not given a voice.

Among Feminists, there is a civil war of sorts, with LibFems on one side and RadFems on the other. LibFems are totally woke and intersectionalist, so they get the voice. RadFems are totally pro-woman and only woman, and they get cancelled.

And, of course, it's pretty much a given that conservative women in general don't like drag, but they'll let consenting adults do as they will, and only object when it involves children or other extreme circumstances. So they get ignored as well, except with the like-minded.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: Lysergic

I think all jokes performed by professional comedians should be ok.

But I don't think that my opinion is the majority.
And since I live in a democracy I must adhere to the majority.

What?

You give up your own belief so as to not be reprimanded by the thought police?

Thats gotta be balls.

a reply to: Boadicea
I suppose I qualify under the umbrella of 'all stripes''.
I don't think that we can understand any of this ''dressing up'' as someone else unless we take into account the entire nature of the entertainment industry. ''Acting'' as if one is someone else is at the core of both blackface and womanface.

I don't follow the condemnation of ''blackface'' in the past, it was what it was. Likewise, for my taste, there was no finer characterization in modern film greater than Robert Downey's character in ''Tropic Thunder''. And even as that did receive a bit or criticism, it is generally accepted as ,well, acceptable. Likewise, the Wayan Brothers in ''White Chicks'' is also well received. So where's that get us.

I think that this ''purity'' aspect of so many people is way overboard. The sins of the past are one thing but are there to be learned from and not repeated. Expunging them is quite another. Denouncing them by the standards of today can serve only as a juxtaposition for personal growth in that we can understand how NOt to be.

As for the blackface, womanface discrepancy you laid out, well, there is always the '' Cause celebre' to consider. Give the ''womanface'' time and sooner or later it too will be lifted up as well.

a reply to: Boadicea

I agree, understanding as well that even those being mocked will have different opinions about it. And it will also depend in large part in how it's done, not just what is being done.

Yes context should matter. Which is why I think robert downy jr hasn't been brought up for his blackface.

a reply to: Lysergic

no . I just care about other peoples feelings.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: IAMTAT

My favorite sweater of all time:

What in the hell is that? 🤔

originally posted by: JHumm
What in the hell is that? 🤔

It was a Gucci sweater that got pulled a year or two ago because it was too awesome.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I suppose I qualify under the umbrella of 'all stripes''. I don't think that we can understand any of this ''dressing up'' as someone else unless we take into account the entire nature of the entertainment industry. ''Acting'' as if one is someone else is at the core of both blackface and womanface.

Wise words...

And perhaps that's where the why and how makes all the difference. This is what performers do: Pretend to be someone else. It can be done with good will or ill will. So it's not really about the impersonation per se, but how the person/people is portrayed.

Once bitten, twice shy... so I get why Blackface has an ugly legacy, but perhaps one day we (as a society) can get to a point where we just don't want "entertainment" at the expense of anyone's respect and dignity.

Maybe.

a reply to: Boadicea

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Oh dear...

I can never UN-see that...

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Oh dear...

I can never UN-see that...

Yeah I know, thought more should share my pain!

originally posted by: Boadicea
Why is Blackface bad but Drag is good?

...there's a lot of circular reasoning going around...

Hi Boady. Didn't think we would catch that, eh ? LoL !!

Thanks for your thoughtful, and thought-provoking thread.
Don't have any answers, only more questions.

Is it okay to use accents to tell stories, or a joke ?
Would it be fine to une a Bronx, or Brooklyn accent just for fun ?
What about those whom do comedy using the voices of others, like Jim Carrey, Rich Little, and others ?
Where is the line drawn, and who the heck gets to decide where the line is ?

What about reading the words written by another person ? Their words, not ours.
What about telling an unoriginal joke, thought-up by someone else ?

a reply to: Boadicea

It's all about context and it's historical significance. A male playing a female or a female playing a male was, and still is an achievement in theater and arts.

Playing blackface has it's place to be honest, but 90% of the time it's used in a negative way. For example, Lawrence of Arabia, or a lot of early Hollywood had a lot of brown face, but only because of scarcity of actors or bias towards "people of color", aka Non white.

If we take a more 'up - to - date' variation, Tropic Thunder, where Robert Downy Jr, plays a black-faced character, who was playing a black-faced character, a parody within itself. But to me the offensive part was Ben Stiller playing the special needs character within' the movie.