On 106 days later, have you changed your mind?

I've been asking since March 29, 2020[1] what it would take for members of ATS to change their minds about the pandemic. Most people have, by and large, been unmoved from their original positions and opinions. As such, my last post was 7 weeks ago[2] and I decided to back off for to see if people's opinions might shift with the updated information as the pandemic has unfolded. However, in the twilight of ATS, I thought I'd try to get a snapshot or two prior to ATS closing up shop.

Let's start with an update on the pandemic!

There have been almost 138,000 deaths attributed to covid-19[3]. This is more than twice the number killed this past flu season, which on the high end was 62,000 deaths estimated[4]. This Covid-19 pandemic has proven more deadly than the 1957-1958 flu pandemic that killed 116,000 people in the US[5]. In fact, covid-19 has become single most deadly pandemic the US has had short of the 1918 flu outbreak[6].

From the first case reported in the US[7] in January to the present has been 175 days. There has been an average of 788 deaths per day. Most diseases have a 'season' where they are prevalent and then die back to reservoirs until the next favorable time of year. The flu does this. Many had predicted the hotter temperatures of summer would vastly reduce the virus here in the US were, well, wrong. In fact, they could not have been MORE wrong.

The second wave is here. When states decided to reopen, the virus spread like wildfire. California, Florida and Texas have the highest case loads from infection. Florida is the worst hit right now and regularly having over 15,000 new cases per day for the last few days and even hit over 17,000 at one point. However, per capita, Arizona - a state being scorched right now - is right behind New York and New Jersey, the two states hit hardest in the early epidemic. Those two states, NY & NJ, no longer have nearly as high of infection rates. The deaths from the second wave have started showing up, but have been less. So far. Doctors have been warning to not be complacent.

The United States has the highest infection rate[8] of the world and has failed to control the epidemic. Americans are blocked at the border with Canada[9]. American tourists[10] are not allowed to fly to Europe. They are not allowed to fly to Japan[11]. Some border crossings to Mexico have been blocked by...Mexico to try to prevent Americans from crossing[12].

Hydroxychloroquine remains controversial...just not in medical quarters. The WHO[13] and CDC[14] have discontinued their studies using the drug. Another study showed using the Remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine actually caused worse outcomes than those who did not take them[15]. However, there was some hoopla about two meta studies that did not vet their sources as well as they should and had to retract their papers: this is good, folks. This is science working and the researchers admitting their paper had serious problems. if only our politicians were willing to admit when they were wrong...

Mask wearing has overtaken the immuno-suppressant hydroxychloroquine as the attention getting controversy though. One man went way over the top over it in Yuma, AZ[16]. Doctors have shown why, even with the disposable masks, it is a good idea to wear them[17].

Other controversies include the US buying the entire world stock of the single drug shown to work against covid[18] and Trump withdrawing the US from WHO[19].

So, ATS, has your opinion changed? Is it even possible to change it? Explain and defend your position in light of the current situation, please.
1. www.abovetopsecret.com...
2. www.abovetopsecret.com...
3. www.worldometers.info...
4. www.cdc.gov...
5. en.wikipedia.org...
6. Thank you, Kansas.
7. www.nejm.org...
8. www.worldometers.info...
9. www.newyorkupstate.com...
10. www.nytimes.com...
11. jp.usembassy.gov...
12. www.cnn.com...
13. www.who.int...
14. www.nih.gov...
15. www.usnews.com...
16. ktar.com...
17. www.fox10phoenix.com...
18. www.theguardian.com...
19. www.cnn.com...

Nope, 4+ months later and my resolve is the same.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Trying to escape a virus as infectious as this is futile. Let it run its course. No reason to destroy our economy over it.

a reply to: anzha

No.. I haven't changed.
I started with a bit of concern because china was not telling the whole story.
But as it showed early on it wasn't as nasty as advertised.

Couple that with questionable numbers.
My wife's cousin was labeled covid positive even though he wasn't so his heart surgery was paid for by the feds.
Magically regular flu doesn't exist anymore either.

So no.
My opinion is the same.

300 million people in America and in 6 months we have experienced:

3 million infections

130k deaths

1.4 million recoveries

The numbers here still heavily contradict the alarm factor that seems to be almost exclusively on the TV.

Considering we were told 1 million dead by now, and we rioted and burned our cities. LOL, I'm even more sure it was the wrong reaction. The only thing that warranted shutdowns was the overburdening of the hospitals even that that could have been handled with selective shutdowns. Instead, we continue to ream out the economy, acting as we can magically restart it anytime we want. Nobody mentions the other medical and health statistics, showing mental health, stress, domestic violence, alcohol, and drug abuse that we likely feel after COVID 19 has been relegated to beneath pandemic levels as it has been hovering for months. A pandemic level bolstered by including pneumonia and other respiratory illnesses per the CDC and already questionable accounting methods.

Nope. No change in opinion on CoVid.

I am, however, more certain than ever that it has been propagandized and weaponized for political and profitability purposes.

Every day I become more convinced that the media is a clear threat to our nation, and many others.

Im still amazed how corporate marketing seems to have entirely overtaken actual science.

Im becoming more and more convinced that the "online world" needs to have some form of free speech protection. Section 230 reform, or perhaps even requiring corporations past a certain size to abide by Constitutional restrictions.

I continue to be amazed at how blatantly politicians, "experts," and media will lie to the public, and many in the public will just eat it up.

I would have expected clever people to actually look at the data trail on numbers more.. but nope.

Above all, I maintain: No matter how serious you think this pathogen is (or is not), there are much bigger threats.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
300 million people in America and in 6 months we have experienced:

3 million infections

130k deaths

1.4 million recoveries

The numbers here still heavily contradict the alarm factor that seems to be almost exclusively on the TV.

329,227,746 as of January 28, 2020

originally posted by: TzarChasm
300 million people in America and in 6 months we have experienced:

3 million infections

130k deaths

1.4 million recoveries

The numbers here still heavily contradict the alarm factor that seems to be almost exclusively on the TV.

Amazing how politicians in the US never die from it. Pelosi, looked like she was making a Dancing in the Streets video with McJagger in China Town. No mask or social distancing distancing. Same for athletes and celebrities. Tom Hanks and his wife roared back from the dead.

originally posted by: Boadicea
Nope. No change in opinion on CoVid.

I am, however, more certain than ever that it has been propagandized and weaponized for political and profitability purposes.

My only thought is I wonder if we had been able to put masks in place earlier, would that have made enough of a difference that we wouldn't have had to shut everything down? We really didn't have to shut everything down to begin with, a handful of places that were bad would have sufficed.

a reply to: anzha

Why do you WANT this to be the worst pandemic in history? Why do you WANT this to be the most infectious, the deadliest, the worst disease humanity has ever seen? Why do you want that? Because it is clear, crystal clear, that you and other covid-19 alarmists are absolutely FROTHING at the mouth for statistics that support your wish.

Covid-19 Alarmists will scour the internet and tv “news” sites for the numbers, the “new research suggests,”
for the “study” that shows how deadly this thing is. They will absolutely REFUSE to look at the whole picture, or at contradicting numbers, or at ANYTHING else that might suggest this thing is not what it’s being shoved down our throats as being. They refuse to notice the goal-post moving done by our overlords since this began. They refuse to think for themselves or to even consider that they might be being manipulated to react.

Why? Do you need some excitement in your life, or something? Do you have little power in your life, and so screaming at others to take this seriously makes you feel powerful or something? What is it that makes you want this so badly?

originally posted by: anzha
On 106 days later, have you changed your mind?

Nope.

If you're for lockdowns and bailouts I have your lunch order ready...

originally posted by: TzarChasm
300 million people in America and in 6 months we have experienced:

3 million infections

130k deaths

1.4 million recoveries

The numbers here still heavily contradict the alarm factor that seems to be almost exclusively on the TV.

I think it will get far worse yet, we don't know there has been 1.4 million recoveries as people are getting ill again after being cleared. This is happening a lot in the UK now. We also know the mortality rate is now around 3-4% it seems.

In the US they are getting 60,000 new infections a day, so we can expect of each of those 60,000 so in the US in the next 10-14 days we can expect a daily death rate of around 1,500 - 2,500 a day. This will probably increase when hospital bed run out completely.

while i understand peoples refusal to face the fact this virus is running rampet .
Every one still focuses on the wrong things and ignores the things that show just how bad this really is .

So starting from jan 1 saying 20 cases or even a 100 or even a 1000 it is now 7 months later the total infected OVER 13 MILLION so from lest say 1000 to 13 million in 7 months the year is just half over and it is exponential grout .

so yea it will get worse even IF it backs off for aug if the number area still climbing at 60 k a day forget vaccines it will be over before they can make one .

The hard cases still want to clam fake numbers when FACT is the states are NOW under reporting Numbers as No government hand out miens big problems ( Slow testing as Trump him self said )
So our accutal numbers may be twice as high as stated .

Some people point to this and say Great its not as deadly as stated . That statement is irreverent . Deadly or not 30 % of people who get it stay sick a Month or even LONGER and Many ARE NOT just old and sick .

So reality is 330 million people in the us say 4 have had it that leaves another 326 million .
say 80 % who get it just dont even know or get over it quick and easy . Sounds good you think ? well taht leaves 63 MILLION who can get very very sick with some who die what is 1 % of 63 MILLION 600,000 dead 2.5 % which is closer to it over 3 Million deaths by 2022 .

And in jan when it hits hardest 10 20 40 MILLION all sick at once . yes shut down because NO one can work .
I really believe the US will collapse a depression to end all depressions and The US we Know will be going . What we will have I wont guess but things will never be the same.

It will effect you even if you never get it .

a reply to: anzha

My opinion is the same. This is dangerous take it seriously. Wear a mask, wash your hands and socially distance.

Those that do not heed these warnings are doomed to win a Darwin Award.



And if you don't die you may end up bed ridden for the better part of a year. Or you can end up with lung, heart or cognitive issues.

a reply to: anzha

You might as well just ask the linebackers on the Denver Broncos if professional football should be eliminated.

No changes in my attitude. Funerals are not up other than overdoses and suicides. wife runs a large grocery store no employee issues. One issue here at work but we knew the guy would be the first to claim he had it and now twice. He's done in the next review. poor performance when he's here.

O btw I live In Arizona and numbers are once again dropping FAST .
amazing what wearing a mask can do .

a reply to: HalWesten

Frankly, examining other factors would likely yield significantly more benefits. Vit D insufficiency/deficiency, diet, general health, stress management, metabolic syndrome, etc.

Masks address droplet spread, and in certain contexts, thats a splendid thing. The cost, however, particularly when applied to the general population.. might make the situation more detrimental than beneficial. The reality is that we dont really know, but we do know that masks arent very effective with aersolized pathogens, tend to make people mess with their face more, and interfere with the respiratory process.

I think the "experts" just gave the public something really easy to latch on to, a security blanket of sorts. Theyll probably start talking about how "research has just found its aersolized!" as the impetus for the next lockdowns. Most people probably wont question any of it.

Many are completely addicted to dopamine hits and extreme emotions, yet they are unaware of it. Thats a real problem, especially when individuals and organizations are ready and willing to take full advantage of the manufactured folie a plusieurs.

Public health officials could have used this opportunity to truly change public health through education. Its clear that they have their own agendas though, and have made a lot of money and gained a lot of control from fostering blatant ignorance under the auspices of #Science!

Pretty much everything that has been done has made the situation worse, directly or indirectly, and that failure is used as marketing to do more of the same. Hell, we even see typical spread patterns of pathogens being ascribed to the "success" of our measures. But.. the only real anomaly in things like all-cause deaths is more likely to be correlated with our approach, given that The Virus had already been spreading for months and months.

originally posted by: HalWesten

My only thought is I wonder if we had been able to put masks in place earlier, would that have made enough of a difference that we wouldn't have had to shut everything down? We really didn't have to shut everything down to begin with, a handful of places that were bad would have sufficed.

Quite honestly, I don't know that there was ever any need for masks at all, up to and including today. To be more specific, any "need" is only relevant to desired outcome... and I don't trust that the desired outcome is to our benefit.

For example, wearing a face mask protects others from the wearer, and creates problems for the wearer -- especially those with pre-existing chronic conditions. Wearing a face shield protects both the wearer and others. Anyone and everyone can get their own face shield, protect themselves, and not even worry about others -- whether they're wearing a mask or not.

So why are face masks mandated, rather than simply advising/recommending that everyone wear a face shield for their own protection?

Why are we putting (low wage) store employees in the dangerous position of enforcing face masks at the door? Like nothing can and will go wrong there...

Face masks are creating far more problems than solving.