Come and See: A Horrifying Look Into the Dark Nature of Man

*Warning: This is a very heavy thread. I’m on the verge of extremely dangerous territory--the darkness that lies in the heart of man. I’ve not always been of the proper mindset to face the true horror of humanity, and would not at all blame you if you wanted to politely excuse yourself from this conversation… the following is not a topic that will make anyone feel good. However, I do believe that a discussion on the topic is important and especially important in today’s climate (wars and rumors of wars), and trust this community with the task.

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelations 6:1-2

I’ve made it a point to understand everything I could about humanity and our nature/abilities/limits, and in doing so have travelled as much as possible, sought out art and music, scoured through books containing literature, history, anthropology, sociology, criminology, philosophy, and psychology, and have gone deep within as well, doing my best to honestly examine the depths of my own nature, despite finding plenty which horrifies me and which I’d rather ignore than face. One small consolation is that by recognizing my evil (I tried to sugar coat this with a euphemism, felt dishonest) impulses, I have a better chance of transforming them or eradicating them than if I chose not to acknowledge the dark side of my nature.

Typically, my focus is on man’s noble and beautiful qualities, on our courage and adaptability, our compassion and creativity, our power to love, nurture, change lives and transform. In order for a complete picture, however, I’ve rarely flinched from learning more about our dark side. Even so, I think I’ve maintained a distance from true horror; one which is tremendously difficult and dangerous to bridge. The way is narrow and treacherous and that the void of madness lies on all sides. I’ve rarely perched myself on that edge, preferring to view from a safe distance.

Yesterday, though, I watched a film which dragged me right to the precipice and forced me to look into the yawning gulf. Scripted by Ales Adamovich and Elem Klimov and directed by Klimov, the just over 2 hour masterpiece Come and See (1985) offers a nightmarish but clear view into the evil that lurks within man. It’s far and away the most disturbing but accurate look into the true effects of war that I’ve seen. The visuals/close up shots/pacing and sound all combine to create a horribly unsettling effect. The final scenes raise the most profound questions regarding war that I’ve heard, and done in a way that never seems forced but unrolls naturally from the plot. In short, for anyone (and I’ve seen and heard people talking like this--even here on ATS) who is doing their part to push along a civil war rather than immediately diffuse the situation, this film would be a good watch. Even as man repeatedly mourns past atrocities, we continue adding to the machine grinding out new ones. Will we ever learn?

Here is a link to Come and See. Have you seen this brilliant but horrific film (based on true stories of war)? I’d love to discuss certain aspects of the movie, but only after everyone interested has a chance to watch. I’ll add discussion questions/a more thorough review to this thread a little later.

a reply to: zosimov







Война Ад товарищи !

Thank you for posting. I’ve been wanting to watch Come and See (and Stalker) for the past couple months, after hearing about both movie’s cinematography and influence.

Work to increase the positive and good qualities you and others possess, but don’t ignore the darker side of life. Otherwise, the world just becomes that much more neurotic.

a reply to: zosimov

Just watched the trailer, that was intense to say the least, Thanks, from an old gezzer.

originally posted by: Disinformation Man

Work to increase the positive and good qualities you and others possess, but don’t ignore the darker side of life. Otherwise, the world just becomes that much more neurotic.

I definitely think this is the key to a good, examined life. Thanks for commenting and I am sorry about being the one to provide the link to this amazing/awful film.
Comments on the trailer seem to have one common theme: The best film I wish I'd never seen.

(Funny you mentioned Stalker-- I'm interested in watching that one as well)

a reply to: pugsrpugs

It is a really intense and unpleasant movie. It is also so well done, a nightmarish fugue.

Thanks for mentioning the trailer--I'll include that here.

a reply to: zosimov

Thank you for. the post. Prevalent timing on the nature of humans, and wow, that is one helluva movie. It's a masterpiece for sure

a reply to: zosimov

It took me several hours to get through the whole movie.

It wasn't Flyora's fault. Even though the old man* with his dying breath reminded him that he told him not to dig. The Germans were going to occupy Belarus anyway. Ukrainian collaborators were going to do what they did. Flyora's digging up the rifle didn't cause it.

When people stay home in their own towns there are societal constraints upon them, because "these are the people I must continue to live with." These constraints drop when one joins an expeditionary force to invade and occupy someone else's town. The constraints then are tied to relationship with the expeditionary force, because "these are the people I must continue to live with."

All is fine and good until the force is stopped. Then it's all excuses, blaming others, and appeals to common humanity.

------------------------------------------
*I assume him to be the other boy's uncle.

Here's an old favorite of mine:


I'm in the process of negotiating for a photo of some bird nests to get taken so I can post it here. May be a few minutes.

originally posted by: Lr103
a reply to: zosimov

Thank you for. the post. Prevalent timing on the nature of humans, and wow, that is one helluva movie. It's a masterpiece for sure

This is a very apt description in more ways than one. I'm glad you found it to be a worthwhile watch. I found it troubling but so very well done and an important topic to consider as well.

a reply to: pthena

It wasn't Flyora's fault, I completely agree. Part of the horror for me is the blind relentlessness and randomness of the war machine (the inevitibilty you described, to which the viewer but not the characters are privy); part was the weight of the world on this boy's shoulders, and finally at the very end there's the slight catharsis that he seems to recognize the true source of all the evils, and that he stops himself before succumbing to answering evil with like.

I also find your theory about how it's even possible to reach such levels of hatred and madness to be worth real consideration.

And am really looking forward to some pics of bird nests. Thanks pthena. Great song, too.

a reply to: zosimov

Thanks for posting I am watching the movie now... But to be honest with you anyone who has ever been a POW or even fought in a war knows just how inhumane people can be . Nothing new... The secret is to avoid war and if unable make sure you are winning because losing in not nice and can be very harmful to you and yours.

It does not have to be a shooting war just ask the 20 million or so who died in the Chinese cultural revolution or the declared enemies of the state under Stalin or Pol Pot. One thing Mao said that I do agree with though is, "all power comes from the barrel of a gun".. Just look around and all the government enforcers are armed...for your protection... and the ones who want to be the next dictators want you disarmed. Old old play book

a reply to: zosimov

And am really looking forward to some pics of bird nests.

Afraid it will be hours instead of minutes. The pictures are taken, then cellphone photographer left for the drive-in theater. When I checked my e-mail - wrong pictures.

There was an old military saying: "Woohoo! I am short! Going back to the World!"
Means deployment time in foreign lands almost over. Notice how home is identified as the World.

Psychologically speaking. "What happens here stays here." No effect on the World - home World that is.

Here is another song: Back to the World by Curtis Mayfield. Seems timely right about now.

"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of leaders…and millions have been killed because of this obedience…Our problem is that people are obedient allover the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves… (and) the grand thieves are running the country. That’s our problem."
- Howard Zinn

Comparing war to watching a war movie on the TV SCREEN?

RIDICULOUS

Have any if you ever fought in a war?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I haven’t but I imagine it would be closer to Texas chainsaw massacre than saving private Ryan

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Isn't it the next best thing? Will this be a debate about the virtues of experience versus imagination? What is experience without imagination and what is imagination without experience? Is experience really the best teacher? It's not about the comparison but the insights we can gain from films, books, music, paintings, photographs etc.

Why don't you share your insights of war to us and maybe you can open up a new perspective for us.

So you think imagination of a war is equal to actually fighting in a war?

Now you want to hear stories of war. Don't worry kid you will see for yourself in the near future.





a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

There is no good without evil. What is good and what is evil is highly depending on your cultural background, the society you live in and your circumstances. I think it is your purpose/responsability in life to find out where you stand, what you think is good and bad. You must not ignore your good/bad feelings and actions, but you have to learn from them. Some circumstances (war and emotional trauma) make it very hard. In the end, when you die, you have lived a good life if you destributed your energy a little more to your concept of good in the world and others. The energy you distributed on earth is your legacy and will not be lost when you die...

Btw I haven’t watched the movie but will do it soon!

a reply to: DeathSlayer

You're a Christian, right.. do you read the Bible? So you really think you can know God from reading a book, huh?

We're here for a discussion, not to prove our manliness by comparing battle scars.

So have you watched the film yet?

a reply to: LocalGenius

Great quote and thanks for posting the video (watching now).