It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

transgender and Rowloing cancelled

page: 3
3
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 08:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
Biology can not be denied. But if a person says they feel like a man/woman/tree inside then who am I to say they are wrong?


I think that's the nub of the problem. A person can call themselves a tree, but they should not expect everyone to slavishly change their idea of what a tree is to pander to their on individual wants. Rearranging the English language to pander to a person who wants to be called a tree would be silly, eh?




posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 08:58 AM
link   

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: SaturnFX

To be fair, most people follow dictionaries and the widely accepted use of the word woman. This is where "woman" means adult female and (for instance) "man" means adult male. “Female” is the sex and determined biologically by having two X chromosomes. This is the accepted scientific wisdom and differentiates sex in all mammals between male and female.

Gender politics is a comparatively new invention. Most people accept that gender is the characteristics or traits that refer to masculinity or femininity. If a man/male wants to dress up and look feminine, or a woman/female wants to look masculine then there are words for those situation too, and that’s not a problem.

But a female is a woman, but could make themselves look like a man by having massive surgical intervention hormones for life, but they cannot change their underlying biology so will never be a male. Similarly, a male can be made to look like a woman, but can never be female. There are edge cases, but these are comparatively rare.

Everyone forgets that in this ridiculous debate that trans people have much higher chances of mental illness and suicide. It’s one complex field and won’t be addressed by crapping on the English language, alienating normal people, and cancelling people who dare to hold different opinions.




The dictionary addresses the term female as pretty specifically a biological reality.
The dictionary addresses the term woman first as the biological female, but then has a small number of other uses (such as in this case of TG) so it is less about the science and more about the look.

as far as this:

But a female is a woman, but could make themselves look like a man by having massive surgical intervention hormones for life, but they cannot change their underlying biology so will never be a male. Similarly, a male can be made to look like a woman, but can never be female. There are edge cases, but these are comparatively rare.

A female is (usually) a woman...will always be female anyhow no matter how many surgeries and pantsuits they wear. Males will never be female, females will never be male. Now, how they look on the outside is what they choose to do...most being within their reflection of their birth sex and society norms, but some choosing the other end of the spectrum. To those people, the only word that fits is the non-science oriented word, which is the one dealing with looks....looks like a woman, claims to be a woman, sure...its a woman. looks like a man, claims to be a man, sure...its a man



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 09:03 AM
link   

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
Biology can not be denied. But if a person says they feel like a man/woman/tree inside then who am I to say they are wrong?


I think that's the nub of the problem. A person can call themselves a tree, but they should not expect everyone to slavishly change their idea of what a tree is to pander to their on individual wants. Rearranging the English language to pander to a person who wants to be called a tree would be silly, eh?

Altering the english language to suit a small amount of people is silly
But, these people exist, so what words then can catagorize?

What is the difference between female and woman? of male and man?
Since the english language isn't redundant (some crossover, but things do indeed mean different things) then these must have two different situational meanings...not like some claim of how two words means exactly the same thing.



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 09:19 AM
link   
a reply to: SaturnFX


Altering the english language to suit a small amount of people is silly.


Yes, it is, but that's exactly what has happened and is happening.


But, these people exist, so what words then can catagorize?


Yes, they do... and as this is a new reality, new words are appropriate and proper -- NOT appropriating words that already have specific meanings and apply to specific people. Biological females, including both child, pubescent and adult females, also still exist. Taking the words which define and describe the female reality is stealing someone else's identity, and leaving those persons (females) undefined... or, worse, re-defined in a male's image. And that's the problem.

Men who identify as "women" are still men -- NOT women. They are a subset of men -- NOT women. Their descriptors should reflect their male reality -- NOT female. To be specific, they are "trans men", NOT trans women.



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 10:21 AM
link   
a reply to: paraphi

If someone wants me to refer to them and treat them like a tree I have no issue with doing that.

I have many friends that have me call them by all kinds of weird nick names. Some of them I don't even know their real names. lol

It doesn't hurt me to refer to someone as whatever they want me to refer them by.
And I don't believe that it hurts society ether. As long as science and biology don't get changed to reflect how people feel that is.



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 10:33 AM
link   

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: SaturnFX


Altering the english language to suit a small amount of people is silly.


Yes, it is, but that's exactly what has happened and is happening.


But, these people exist, so what words then can catagorize?


Yes, they do... and as this is a new reality, new words are appropriate and proper -- NOT appropriating words that already have specific meanings and apply to specific people. Biological females, including both child, pubescent and adult females, also still exist. Taking the words which define and describe the female reality is stealing someone else's identity, and leaving those persons (females) undefined... or, worse, re-defined in a male's image. And that's the problem.

Men who identify as "women" are still men -- NOT women. They are a subset of men -- NOT women. Their descriptors should reflect their male reality -- NOT female. To be specific, they are "trans men", NOT trans women.


What is the difference between the term female vs the term woman
What is the difference between the term male vs the term man
Please use citations instead of your opinion should you answer this

edit on 9-7-2020 by SaturnFX because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 11:09 AM
link   
a reply to: SaturnFX

You don't know? Or are we playing some kind of "gotcha" game?

Female:

of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Oxford English Dictionary

Woman

An adult human female.

Oxford English Dictionary

To elaborate, "female" applies to all bodies whose reproductive systems are designed to produce eggs or large gametes, and "male" applies to all bodies whose reproductive systems are designed to produce sperm or small gametes.

Female and male applies to all such animals, woman and man refers to humans specifically. So whereas "woman" refers to adult human females, "ewe" refers to an adult female sheep, "mare" refers to an adult female horse, "doe" refers to an adult female deer, etc.

But somehow I'm pretty sure you knew this already...



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 01:30 PM
link   

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: SaturnFX

You don't know? Or are we playing some kind of "gotcha" game?

Female:

of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Oxford English Dictionary

Woman

An adult human female.

Oxford English Dictionary

To elaborate, "female" applies to all bodies whose reproductive systems are designed to produce eggs or large gametes, and "male" applies to all bodies whose reproductive systems are designed to produce sperm or small gametes.

Female and male applies to all such animals, woman and man refers to humans specifically. So whereas "woman" refers to adult human females, "ewe" refers to an adult female sheep, "mare" refers to an adult female horse, "doe" refers to an adult female deer, etc.

But somehow I'm pretty sure you knew this already...

Merriam Webster has this caveat in number 3:

distinctively feminine nature

Source
Which would arguably fit a trans person, hense why they are gravitating towards that

Should there be a better fitting word? sure, but until then, I'll call someone who looks like a woman, acts like a woman, and considers themselves a woman a woman just for ease. Now, if they are saying they are female, I won't bow to that because nowhere in female is there any interpretation of looks over biology.

gender vs sex
lets answer that
What is sex of a person (dictionary)
what is gender of a person (dictionary)

Why will nobody answer this outside of what they "feel" it means?
what is the difference?



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 01:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: Boadicea
Or are we playing some kind of "gotcha" game?

Not at all btw, I am simply stating that until a word comes up that is short, concise, and adopted, woman is as close to a word as we got for now (especially when asking "did you see a ---- with long brown hair?")

Woman is to female what alien is to extraterrestrial from my understanding
All extraterrestrials are aliens, but not all aliens are extraterrestrials
The counterpoint here is that alien and extraterrestrial mean the same exact thing, but thats not fully correct.

Females are usually women (like the expression, don't call me a lady....but lady simply means woman also, right?)

Sidenote, I figure calling a trans a "fem" might be a thing, but hasn't yet caught on...also, no f2m equal...a mask? sounds sketchy...but I will agree that a better term is certainly needed so this debate can finally die out.
at least we all agree there are only 2 genders, 2 sexes.



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 01:44 PM
link   
a reply to: SaturnFX


gender vs sex lets answer that What is sex of a person (dictionary) what is gender of a person (dictionary) Why will nobody answer this outside of what they "feel" it means? what is the difference?


Because the honest and true answer is deemed "transphobic" and "TERFy" and gets people in trouble with Trans Activists, who bully, harass, threaten them, often getting them de-platformed or fired from their jobs.

Up until sometime in the 1990s, the definition of "gender" was strictly as a literary construct. Nothing about someone's "feelings" or some magical essence. Then the idea of "gender" as a person's identity or magical essence was struck upon and adopted by the transsexual/transgender community, which then became one of their demands for the rest of us to accept and adopt.

While most people are quite happy to let people express themselves any way they so choose (as long as they are not hurting anyone), they have not been so accepting of changing words and forcing beliefs on them as hard and fast truths. Expanding the definition of "gender" and our understanding of "gender" is just one part of a greater package of demands that is much more problematic. Probably a big reason why the formal definitions have not been universally accept and "officially" changed.
edit on 9-7-2020 by Boadicea because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2020 @ 01:59 PM
link   
a reply to: SaturnFX


Sidenote, I figure calling a trans a "fem" might be a thing, but hasn't yet caught on...


I think that was suggested/tried at some point, but if I remember correctly, "fem" and "femme" were already used by lesbians, so there was some dust up about that...

I do think if we could work out the verbiage and terminology for trans in a way that created new terms and verbiage for them, without taking words and terms that are already "taken" by and for women, many of the current issues could be abated.

Even the most militant Rad Fems don't seem to have a problem with trans identifying people themselves, but their appropriation of everything "woman," which does have adverse effects on girls and women.



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 01:00 AM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea

you nailed it in response to saturnFX

what poeple sharing this view are attempting is to change the definition of something (in this case gender) to match what they want it to be (aka emotion).

anyone who points this out, no matter how respectfully and/or refuses to change reality/definitions to match what they want become targets for ranting, personal attacks (like the responses to me) .

I suspect its because they cannot handle the truth and want the rest of us to accept their PERCEPTION of reality.

or maybe more to the point they realize at some level the cold hard truth is they will NEVER BE nor is it even possible to change their gender and lash out at anything/anyone that confirms that.

scrounger



edit on 10-7-2020 by scrounger because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 01:25 AM
link   

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: scrounger

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: scrounger
gender/sex in biological terms is THE SAME THING.

I guess I will repeat since you seem to like to repeat also

sex is biological
gender is personal/social identity

Sorry if you missed this class in school, but its easy to brush up on your education.
Not to worry though, at least 50% of the population is around the same level as you appear to be, so don't feel too bad.


um which part of
XX chromosomes your a BIOLOGICAL FEMALE
XY chromosomes your a BIOLOGICAL MALE

is wrong and up for debate
what part of we are HUMANS that only have one sex / gender is wrong..

again I pointed out with your example by picture if you take a blood sample and test it ..
it will show either XX or XY.. not anything other

that humans have male and female

you can name call and repeat your rants till doomsday.

if I send any "transsexual" blood sample to a SCIENTIFIC TESTING SITE that is the ONLY TWO OPTIONS that will come out..

dressing , body surgery, hormones, and "identity" will not change that..

scrounger

Like debating with rainmain

so your debate style is to make snark childish personal attacks instead of adressing the issue(s) at hand.. not only does that harm if not destroy any crediblity on your discussion. but it shows a lack of civiilty required for adult discussion.. BTW notice only you are acting this way.

I am not talking about male and female, I am talking about man and woman

no your trying to change the BIOLOGICAL definition to match what you want it to

I am not talking about transsexual, I am discussing transgender

no your trying to change the definition of the word to match your opinion/view when it doesnt match biological facts



Since you can't debate in good faith to even discuss what is being discussed, to include giving you definitions of what gender is vs sex,

no I gave you the BIOLOGICAL definitions of not only male/female but of what a human is. to which in BIOLOGICAL facts gender and sex are identical. i provided FACTS that contradict your VIEW.. you cant accept that so to you "debate" isnt happening.


then you aren't here to debate,


no you are not debating.. because the debate isnt going your own way.. so you resort by this comment to the old propoganda tactic "accuse others of the sins your committing"

you are here for typing practice and to air your proud ignorance it seems.


again with a personal attack.. along with accusing "ignorance" when the facts do not support your claim.. an emotional rant .


Feel free to write back when you decide to start debating the topic.


no what you want is for me to agree with your point and accept a reality that is not supported by facts... that isnt debate btw thats an agreement.

The discussion is about apples. stop bringing up oranges.



sigh.. I am presenting apples to apples .. your choosing to try to change an apple to an orange because you dont like the apple.


you want to change BIOLOGICAL male/female definition to a CHOICE TO LIVE or present a MALE/FEMALE outward appearance..

the cold hard truth that you keep trying to deny and change is this

you can live, dress, and present outwardly gender traits of either or both biological sex.
if your happy with that, all the power to you..

but the COLD HARD UNCHANGING BIOLOGICAL FACT is you CANNOT CHANGE the sex/gender your born with.

you cannot change the biological definition of male/female gender/sex.

at your biological core is XX chromosome female, XY chromosome male..

you want the world to accept your OPINION/WISH/EMOTIONAL view that you can change your gender/sex.

that isnt gonna happen and that angers you.

I think the problem is at some level anyone "transgender" or supporter KNOWS you will NEVER BE the other gender/sex .

so they lash out at anyone or anything that either shows that or that wont grant you changing facts to suit your WANTS.

so back to the cold hard BIOLOGICAL FACTS (for the X time)

HUMAN SPECIES only has TWO SEXES/GENDERS... MALE AND FEMALE

your gender/sex is determined by chromosomes developed DURING GESTATION .

you have either

XX chromosomes that makes you a BIOLOGICAL FEMALE
XY chromosomes that makes you a BIOLOGICAL MALE

no matter how you identify, brain chemistry, hormones taken, body modifications, and how you live your life ..

you cannot change XX to XY or vice versa

the fact you call yourself, live as , identify as male/female is IRRELIVANT to what BIOLOGY made you.

if you want to call yourself male/female thats ok.. but does not change your biology or the definition of gender/sex.

just how you or you want others to PERCEIVE you as...

perceived male or female does not change the definition of such in BIOLOGICAL SENSE.

scrounger



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 03:04 AM
link   

originally posted by: schuyler
Try meditating on whether or not you have a "Y" chromosome in every cell of your body. That's all you really need to know. If you can't figure it out, see a shrink; you are mentally ill.


brilliant a breath of fresh air in a world thats lost its way



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 03:14 AM
link   

originally posted by: scrounger
no your trying to change the BIOLOGICAL definition to match what you want it to

I am not talking about transsexual, I am discussing transgender

no your trying to change the definition of the word to match your opinion/view when it doesnt match biological facts

What is the dictionary definition of gender?
what is the dictionary definition of sex?
What is the differences when you compare the two...from a dictionary

You are disingenuous and debate in bad faith. There is nothing more to discuss since you reject the very basic rooted definition and demand your opinion trumps reality of the differences in the words.

If you reply back, I will only answer when you provide the actual definition of the two things...not definition according to you, but real definitions



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 04:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: scrounger
no your trying to change the BIOLOGICAL definition to match what you want it to

I am not talking about transsexual, I am discussing transgender

no your trying to change the definition of the word to match your opinion/view when it doesnt match biological facts

What is the dictionary definition of gender?
what is the dictionary definition of sex?
What is the differences when you compare the two...from a dictionary

Boadicea ALREADY DID THAT in his posts. but now you want it repeated? common clearly anyone can see your trying to deflect or at least IGNORE what you dont want to read .. much less accept




You are disingenuous and debate in bad faith.

the only "bad faith" as it were is i WONT agree with you or change FACTS/DEFINITIONS to meet your emotions.. if i agreed with your opinions over facts you be all for that.. however that is not a discussion but an agreement..

There is nothing more to discuss since you reject the very basic rooted definition

EXCUSE ME? i provided the "definitions" (along with Boadicea) of BIOLOGICAL SEX/GENDER. you continue to ignore it because it doesnt fit what you want.

and demand your opinion trumps reality of the differences in the words.


again you accuse me of the "sins yourself are doing" (propoganda 101).. the REALITY (for the 10 or more time) is GENDER/SEX is in HUMANS MALE OR FEMALE . determined if you have XX chromosome (biological female) or XY chromosome (biological male) that is DETERMINED IN GESTATION and SET AT BIRTH. period...

If you reply back, I will only answer when you provide the actual definition of the two things...not definition according to you, but real definitions


im sorry but i and Boadicea have provided OVER AND OVER definitions .

you continue to ignore them and try to change them to fit your EMOTIONS AND OPINIONS.

you can look like a sex your not, take hormones of the sex your not, you can live like the sex your not, and you can even call yourself a sex you were NOT BORN WITH...

but at your BIOLOGICAL CORE you CAN NEVER BE ANY OTHER SEX/GENDER than what the chromosomes at birth made you.

PERIOD

if your a MAN , YOUR A MAN/MALE
If your a WOMAN , your a WOMAN/FEMALE

to try to claim at your core your the opposite ISNT FACT or biologically true.

any other claims is delusional ....

scrounger


BTW all this and not one personal childish attack...

edit on 10-7-2020 by scrounger because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 06:13 AM
link   

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: Boadicea

what poeple sharing this view are attempting is to change the definition of something (in this case gender) to match what they want it to be (aka emotion).


Yes, and in the process they want to change everyone else as well. I don't think they quite see that part of it though. At least not the way we do.


anyone who points this out, no matter how respectfully and/or refuses to change reality/definitions to match what they want become targets for ranting, personal attacks (like the responses to me) .

I suspect its because they cannot handle the truth and want the rest of us to accept their PERCEPTION of reality.


This is true, but they've also been encouraged and empowered to do so... and it seems by those who want chaos and madness everywhere... just like we're now being expected to disagrees with BLM... or any other currently "progressive" issues.

It's a shame for those with real mental/emotional illnesses that aren't being addressed, or worse are being fueled, by this intolerance for anyone who dissents... For many, if they're being told, "Yes! Yes! You really really ARE a stunning and brave woman!" by their echo chamber, then yeah, they're going to be triggered by anyone saying, "Um, wait a minute, not exactly..."

It sucks that people are attacked for trying to share common sense and find common ground. There is no level of civility or respect that is enough if we dare to disagree. It's sure a sign of the times, eh? JK Rowling sure knows!



posted on Jul, 10 2020 @ 11:52 AM
link   

originally posted by: scrounger
im sorry but i and Boadicea have provided OVER AND OVER definitions .


Nope, hasn't happened yet, so I will do it for you


Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Gender: either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones


now, I want you to study the gender section. take a day or two and reflect on the bit at the end where is says "social and cultural differences rather than biological ones."

These are two different meanings. sex and gender are not the same word.

You are not debating in good faith. There is no debating until you start, so either we go from here with your acceptance that you were wrong as per definition, or you can just go shout your opinions over facts to a wall, knowing you are either willfully ignorant, or just flat out lying at this point.



posted on Jul, 12 2020 @ 07:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: scrounger
im sorry but i and Boadicea have provided OVER AND OVER definitions .


Nope, hasn't happened yet, so I will do it for you


Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Gender: either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones


now, I want you to study the gender section. take a day or two and reflect on the bit at the end where is says "social and cultural differences rather than biological ones."

These are two different meanings. sex and gender are not the same word.

You are not debating in good faith. There is no debating until you start, so either we go from here with your acceptance that you were wrong as per definition, or you can just go shout your opinions over facts to a wall, knowing you are either willfully ignorant, or just flat out lying at this point.


the only one not "negotiating in good faith " IS YOU

Now two posters have given you definitions that you continue to ignore and try to substitute your own

even your definition of gender misses (or left out deliberately) is that its HOW SOCIETY VIEWS the person , characteristics and roles.

A VIEW...

it does not change that the BIOLOGICAL FACT your born with XX chromosomes thus a biological FEMALE and XY chromosomes a biological MALE.

how your viewed in any method, way, called, ect is IRRELIVANT.

doesnt matter how you dress, change our OUTWARD appearance , what hormones you take or (what you added) how society views you or your roles.

if you were born with XX chromosomes YOUR A FEMALE AND NOTHING CHANGES THAT
if you were born with XY chromosome YOUR A MALE AND NOTHING CHANGES THAT

To put it even more simply if you changed yourself to look like and acted like a cat, society said you are viewed as a cat..

guess what.... YOUR NOT A CAT...

period

sorry but if your not born that gender/sex... YOUR NOT THAT nor can you ever be.

scrounger



posted on Jul, 13 2020 @ 02:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: SaturnFX
These are two different meanings. sex and gender are not the same word.


I don't think that anyone disagrees with that.

Sex is biological based on chromosomes and reproductive parts etc. People cannot change their biological sex, although they can have surgery and take drugs which make a person resemble a different sex. A person born a male can never become a female, for example.

Gender seems to be word of confusion. For the vast majority of people “gender” is co-terminus with sex. This is especially true when looking at woman’s rights and aspects of law.

What a minority of unpleasant bullies want is for people to define themselves as something else and then by so doing, become that something else. So a Man wanting to be called a Woman would probably be acceptable to most people – no problem with that. But a Man wanting to be called a Woman and inheriting all the benefits of being a woman too, such as access to changing rooms, competing in woman’s sports and eroding real woman’s rights is problematic. That’s the root of the problem.

People can be “gender fluid” if they want, but if a guy wanders into the woman’s changing room at my local swimming pool and says “it’s OK ladies ‘cos I’m a woman too”, I think no one would be OK with that.




top topics



 
3
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join