Native Americans travelled to East Polynesia

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: putnam6

There were not many predators on most of the islands which the Polynesians colonized. No snakes.
I wonder if that's been considered.

That's a likely scenario.

I've always been fascinated by ancient travelers like the Vikings, Polynesians, etc, the Atlantic had to be treacherous enough but the Pacific? no doubt they solved the mysteries of oceanic navigation and even likely had knowledge of weather patterns. Can't imagine crawling into an open catamaran or longboat without knowing where or how long the voyage would be

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: Hanslune
Both the OP study and the one you provided support the SA people traveling to Polynesia.
At the moment, there isn't anything to indicate they ever returned to SA.

Harte

Yep

OR the Polynesian went to SA and some returned either with spouses or perhaps as returning children generations later. They then (I presume) died out in SA. The SA used rafts to trade along the coast - the Spanish encountered these. So that remains a method but the reasons or motivation to launch into the Pacific - well driven off course by storms, escape from death due to politics or conquest- curiosity?

en.wikipedia.org...

There's more "ifs" in your version. A return trip for South Americans appears unlikely based on what's in the paper you linked. Genetic material came to Polynesia from South America. You just have a Polynesian bias.


Harte

a reply to: Harte

It wouldn't have to be generations later. No need for any establishment in South America.

A canoe reached South America and ran into trouble with the inhabitants who vastly outnumbered them (sort of like what happened to Captain Cook). So they grabbed some supplies (sweet potatoes) and some slaves, and hightailed it back home. Some brief intercourse (of the social type) then gone. No settlement. No genetic transfer of significance on the mainland.

That's what Hawaiians did among themselves (They weren't very peaceful folk, actually. Pretty warlike.).

Whatever the exact circumstances, Occam does not apply because the two hypotheses are not equal. Eastward Polynesian exploration is far more likely than a drifting raft.

a reply to: putnam6

Their marine technology and navigational skills were superb. As was their knowledge of the moods of the ocean.

Hōkūleʻa’s return to Hawaiʻi marks the first time in history that a Polynesian voyaging canoe has sailed around the world. The voyage was led by a crew of skilled navigators using ancient Polynesian wayfinding techniques, observing the stars, ocean, winds, birds and other signs of nature as mapping points for direction.

www.hokulea.com...



They could have had no way of knowing that Hawaii existed. A thousand miles from the nearest island to the south. Vikings were good, Polynesians were far, far better.

But, oh my god, what a place to come upon! No people. No dangerous animals. Various types of flightless (and very stupid) birds. Abundant water sources. Within the tradewind flow so a very mild climate. Jackpot!

(Most of those birds didn't survive. Only one is not extinct.)

They were explorers, by far the greatest of the time period. And for a long time afterwards. Getting to, and returning from South America was well within their capability, and it's exactly the sort of thing they were doing all over the Pacific.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: putnam6

Their marine technology and navigational skills were superb. As was their knowledge of the moods of the ocean.

Hōkūleʻa’s return to Hawaiʻi marks the first time in history that a Polynesian voyaging canoe has sailed around the world. The voyage was led by a crew of skilled navigators using ancient Polynesian wayfinding techniques, observing the stars, ocean, winds, birds and other signs of nature as mapping points for direction.

www.hokulea.com...



They could have had no way of knowing that Hawaii existed. A thousand miles from the nearest island to the south. Vikings were good, Polynesians were far, far better.

But, oh my god, what a place to come upon! No people. No dangerous animals. Various types of flightless (and very stupid) birds. Abundant water sources. Within the tradewind flow so a very mild climate. Jackpot!

(Most of those birds didn't survive. Only one is not extinct.)

They were explorers, by far the greatest of the time period. And for a long time afterwards. Getting to, and returning from South America was well within their capability, and it's exactly the sort of thing they were doing all over the Pacific.

Your posts and other people like yours is what I'll miss most if ATS goes under, posts like these you always learn something new. Thats why I joined so long ago, forget politics it's stuff like this that I can read and watch and research for hours.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Harte

Eastward Polynesian exploration is far more likely than a drifting raft.

Certainly - but who knows!

originally posted by: Phage

They were explorers, by far the greatest of the time period. And for a long time afterwards. Getting to, and returning from South America was well within their capability, and it's exactly the sort of thing they were doing all over the Pacific.

I suspect they pushed on from Hawaii too - you wonder if they made it to the West coast of NA.

a reply to: Hanslune

At this point, no one.

But there is no reason to invoke Occam. The Polynesian hypothesis is stronger on it merits. We know Polynesians were traveling the Pacific. We know their vessels could sail to windward.

originally posted by: putnam6


Your posts and other people like yours is what I'll miss most if ATS goes under, posts like these you always learn something new. Thats why I joined so long ago, forget politics it's stuff like this that I can read and watch and research for hours.

Ditto, the site has died off a bit over the years but it was once (this sub forum) a great source of information, speculation and learning.

a reply to: Hanslune

You know there's a town in Oregon called Aloha, don't you?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Hanslune

At this point, no one.

But there is no reason to invoke Occam. The Polynesian hypothesis is stronger on it merits. We know Polynesians were traveling the Pacific. We know their vessels could sail to windward.

While true that the Polynesians were great sailors, with the evidence we have in hand I would disagree.
No evidence of Polynesians reaching SA.
Evidence of SA people reaching Polynesia.

Harte

Ima leave this right here
Datura(Jimson weed) presence in the Old World by the 1st millenium CE.

Datura
(Solanaceae) is a small genus of plants that, for long, was thought to occur naturally in both the New and OldWorlds. However, recent studies indicate that all species in the genus originated in the Americas. This finding has prompted the conclusion that no species of Datura could have been present in the Old World prior to its introductionthere by Europeans in the early 16th century CE. Further, the textual evidence traditionally cited in support of a pre-Columbian Old World presence of Datura species is suggested to be due to the misreading of classical Greek andArabic sources. As a result, botanists generally accept the opinion that Datura species were transferred into the OldWorld in the post-Columbian period. While the taxonomic and geographic evidence for a New World origin for all the Datura species appears to be well supported, the assertion that Datura species were not known in the Old World priorto the 16th century is based on a limited examination of the pre-Columbian non-Anglo sources. We draw on old Arabicand Indic texts and southern Indian iconographic representations to show that there is conclusive evidence for the pre-Columbian presence of at least one species of
Datura in the Old World. Given the systematic evidence for a NewWorld origin of the genus, the most plausible explanation for this presence is a relatively recent but pre-Columbian(probably first millennium CE) transfer of at least one Datura species, D. meteL, into the Old World. Because D. metel is a domesticated species with a disjunct distribution, this might represent an instance of human-mediated transportfrom the New World to the Old World, as in the case of the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas)

I would note that it is likely Datura has been in Eastern India for up to 4000 years as it is an integral part of Munda rituals, and an analysis of the datura used by them shops a close relationship to species from California, where datura has its highest diversity.
The Munda also have a North American derived story as part of their creation mythos.
There is also a species of wild potato, related to the 4 corners potato that has been in the news as of late, used by New Guinnea highland tribesman.
Throw in the the wild tobacco of northern Australia(catalogued by the first English botanist to explore the interior in the 1830's) and it is pretty hard to argue against New World incursions into the old world.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Hanslune

You know there's a town in Oregon called Aloha, don't you?

Been there, but of course that is concrete evidence! As is the fact that Cairo, Thebes and other Middle Eastern cities are noted in the United States proving the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians colonized NA.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Hanslune

At this point, no one.

But there is no reason to invoke Occam. The Polynesian hypothesis is stronger on it merits. We know Polynesians were traveling the Pacific. We know their vessels could sail to windward.

While true that the Polynesians were great sailors, with the evidence we have in hand I would disagree.
No evidence of Polynesians reaching SA.
Evidence of SA people reaching Polynesia.

Harte

True but we also have DNA evidence of a Native American making it to Iceland. He/she probably didn't make the journey in a canoe but more plausibly as a passenger on a Viking ship.

www.discovermagazine.com...

www.independent.co.uk...

a reply to: Hanslune
The MtDna Hg C clade found in iceland is too old to have come from North America, and has been found in ancient burials in Karelia. It was likley present in low levels in Scandanavians when they settled Iceland, and is a hold over of a group of ancient pan arctic peoples.
The Native American MtDna Hg's found in Norwegian burials, on the other hand, is certainly of more recent origin and is indicative of the Norse bringing back Native American females to Europe.

island-hopping groups from Asia and Oceania began to push farther east some 1,000 years ago... [...]
people in remote eastern Polynesia produced offspring with South Americans between ad 1150 and ad 1230, whereas those in Rapa Nui mixed closer to ad 1380. They also found evidence of mixing in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

'Nature' link in OP'




i seen the click-bait Ad yesterday...about Polynesians mixing with Native American Tribes some 800 years ago (but i did not read the article then)...
so the date of interaction was between 1000CE-1250CE inside the article---

which makes me wonder about 'outside intervention' that brought these distanced Peoples together,

even as the Vikings/Norsemen were colonizing the North Atlantic "stepping-stones"-to-Northern Hemisphere...
;the Hidden Hand, i suggest has urged humanity to explore/to invent/ to Quest & the Polynesian interacting with western hemisphere peoples needs to be investigated but with different Lenses in our Study


the Anthropology issue, to me, is of less concern than the 'outside influencers' (aliens/angels?) that spurred on the human travelers in a century span of explorations.... from the East as well as the North...into the western hemisphere

no, I will not cite the Peri Reis map from Ancient sources as the 'trigger' for the much later ...second burst of explorations in the 1400s

a reply to: punkinworks10

Fits with my scenario for the Pacific.

a reply to: Harte

Sweet potatoes and traces of DNA, right?

That it not evidence which favors either scenario. The fact that Polynesians were great seafarers during that time period, does.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Harte

Sweet potatoes and traces of DNA, right?

That it not evidence which favors either scenario. The fact that Polynesians were great seafarers during that time period, does.

Well its becoming a bit clearer (the grand scheme of what was going on the south Pacific - however first things first confirmation of the study - I still recall the chicken bone disaster of 2014)

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Hanslune
The MtDna Hg C clade found in iceland is too old to have come from North America, and has been found in ancient burials in Karelia. It was likley present in low levels in Scandanavians when they settled Iceland, and is a hold over of a group of ancient pan arctic peoples.
The Native American MtDna Hg's found in Norwegian burials, on the other hand, is certainly of more recent origin and is indicative of the Norse bringing back Native American females to Europe.

More specifics please on the Norwegian burials, when and where?