Jesus said;- You are for me or against me

Don't trust a guy who doesn't even give you his real name.

a reply to: Peeple
Clever, but not relevant.

Let's say you have a person whom lived a full life of good deeds, selflessness, and kindness. However, this person lived in a part of the world that never encountered the teachings of Jesus. Are they then against Jesus?

I'd think without a significaant amount of years in the church, one would have a difficult time believing the story of Jesus despite them living his teachings without even knowing it. I have a hard time believing a kind, just, and forgiving God would damn them for eternity for that.

Following that logic, if you had heard his teachings, but never personally met the man, thus not necessarily following Jesus himself, yet you still lived your life by those principles the best way you could. Would you be damned for eternity? Is that a kind, just, amd forgiving God?

Mind you, the only text we have a stories from 3rd parties and multiple writers. Writings which have been picked and chosen by the church. Even the Bible states Jesus was against religion.

a reply to: sine.nomine
The immediate answer, in terms of this thread, is that Jesus in the Matthew quotation applies the phrase "against me" to people who are actively and consciously working against him. It's not my job to second-guess the decisions of God, but it's possible that your example might be covered by the second quotation.

I looked at this whole issue in one of my New Testament Salvation series (q.v.);

They do by nature what the law requires

a reply to: DISRAELI

No how about sleeping one one side the the other speaking out against Israel as a donkey with their nose in the wind, marring a harlot to show Israel's unfaithfulness. I would imagine many a leadership wanted to kill him. Sounds like a walk in the park. Non biblical accounts say he was stoned todeath in Egypt.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I was going to add something similar to a section of that regarding St. Paul's perspective. He said about when one does good: It is not I, but the Christ within. Its almost a non-theistic view within Christianity. Whereas Christ is in all of us, and we need to look within ourselves to find truth and strip away our bad nature (or sin) gradually.

That always made the most sense to me. It's more Buddhistic and less dogmatic. It says we can find salvation ourselves (often with the help of leaders and text) through the good within, whether you call it Christ or truth or the core of life or whathaveyou.

originally posted by: sine.nomine
Whereas Christ is in all of us, and we need to look within ourselves to find truth and strip away our bad nature (or sin) gradually.

That isn't quite what Paul means. In his teaching, Christ is "in" those who have received the Holy Spirit by faith- because the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ. We experience Christ through the Spirit. For practical purposes, "Christ is in you" and "The Spirit is in you" are the same thing.

So the truth is not within us at all, but transmiited to us from God through the Holy Spirit.

But I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit speaks to the unconscious minds of people to a much greater extent than we can ever imagine. That may be the real solution to the problem.

a reply to: sine.nomine

Christ is not with in everyone. The only way He enters a life is through conviction of ones sin by the Holy Spirit. Then after that conviction one is so undone you cry out. Then you make Him Lord of all, cause if He is not Lord of all is He Lord at all? The next step is called the fruit of repentance, not only a change in mind but in actions also. This can only occure by the infilling of our devise help mate the Holy Spirit. Your not born a Christian,you not a Christian cause you go to church, any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
Exactly- though "lying on one side" was Ezekiel, who also had a wife taken away from him so that God could set up an allegory.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
Exactly- though "lying on one side" was Ezekiel, who also had a wife taken away from him so that God could set up an allegory.

Me bad got my prophets mixed up.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I think we're talking about the same thing, especially in relation to the 3 parables you mentioned in the previous link you gave me. I just think we have different but parallel definitions of faith. Just as I'm sure we have different but parallel definitions of (in Christian terms) God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The very fact many teachings are done through parables shows how this is possible without absolute faith in Jesus Christ, the man. Its believing practically the same thing by different terms.

a reply to: sine.nomine
Will it help if I repeat what I've said on many occasions, that the essence of the definition of Faith is trust?

Thus the language of John's gospel distinguishes between believing in someone, which is crucial, and believing that something is true, which is secondary.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Faith is trust, I agree. I believe in my potential and the potential of others. I believe that the necessity of kindness to others and our environment is true. I have faith in the universe, which I believe to be living and all encompassing.

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

I believe there are many gods and demigods, and I also believe in a God of all gods (if you want to define it that way). This is mentioned in genesis, too. Christ is within us all, if you find it and act upon it. I don't believe in original sin, but I think we have to search within ourselves to correct bad behaviors, thus finding Christ. This is the same as your fruit of repentance. Saying you're not a born a Christian or a Christian for going to church is exactly what I'm talking about.

They're the same ideas with different definitions.

a reply to: sine.nomine
That is where we differ. The central thread of the Bible is the conflict and the choice between trusting in oneself and trusting in the "other". The first is the source of our wrong moral choices.

a reply to: DISRAELI

John 10:34-38
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

We are all God the Father's sons. Jesus, being enlightened, does his Father's work. To whom do you think Jesus prayed to alone in the desert? Himself, or the Father? He could only except Jesus and pray to himself through mediation and understanding his own place in the world, which was a great one.

We should only hope to find such enlightenment through guidance to our own God of gods and mediation so we can understand our own paths. And doing good deeds through the (in Christian terms) Holy Spirit.

ETA: This is why He said passing into the kingdom of heaven is as difficult as a camel passing through the eye of a needle. Reaching enlightenment is extremely rare.

originally posted by: sine.nomine
John 10:34-38
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Even that quotation identifies himself as a special case. He does not say that anyone else was "set apart as his very own" by the Father and "sent into the world".

Jesus put his trust in the Father. He invites us to put our trust in the Father or in Jesus himself.
Jesus NEVER, at any time, invites us to put our trust in ourselves.

"Trust in yourself" may be "comfortable doctrine", but it is not Biblical teaching. You are getting it from yourself, not from the Bible.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm not getting it from myself. I went to Catholic schools for 14 years, and did a lot of volunteering in the church. But I also studied other religions during that time including Gnostic texts. A lot of my beliefs are Buddhist. Technically, I'm a Christian Buddhist. I believe in the teachings of both.

Having been raised Catholic by an agnostic father and a Lutheran mother, and having a Lutheran brother and Protestant grandparents, I've kind of been soured on dogma. Buddhism ties it together for me, so that's where I'm coming from.

a reply to: sine.nomine
I'm willing to bet that Catholic schools did not teach "You can trust in yourself". It's not from the Bible.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: sine.nomine
I'm willing to bet that Catholic schools did not teach "You can trust in yourself". It's not from the Bible.

It is in the Gospel of Thomas in the Gnostic Bible.

Jesus says:
(1) “If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you and outside of you.”
(4) “When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty.”

ETA: In my Catholic schools, we learned theology of many religions, but we practiced Catholicism. Actually most of our time was spent learning other religions.