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Jesus said;- You are for me or against me

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posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 05:01 PM
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“He who is not with me is against me” (Matthew ch24 v30)
“He that is not against us is for us” (Mark ch9 v40).

Jesus made these two declarations on different occasions. Some people try to make them out as contradictory. I must admit that I’ve never been able to see what these people are getting at. Surely they’re just two ways of saying the same thing?

By way of illustration, let’s take a coin, an ordinary coin. The Queen’s head on one side, of course. REGINA and FID DEF and D.G. and all that. Something else on the other side. The old penny had Britannia waving a spear. The old thruppenny bit, now reduced to rhyming slang, used to have a portcullis.

Anyway, those are the options. The coin will come up “Heads” or “Tails”. If you find it comes up “Heads” every time, you are a character in “Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead”, and should consult your dramatist as a matter of urgency.

The result can be described as follows; “If the coin does not land Heads, it lands Tails” or “If the coin does not land Tails, it lands Heads”. These are just alternate ways of saying the same thing, literally two sides of the same coin. How are the two statements at the top of the page any different?

I suppose the thought in many minds is “But what about the great mass of neutrals? Surely Jesus is treating them as ‘against me’ in the first statement and ‘for me’ in the second?” But in that case they’re missing the point of the declaration; either way of putting it, there is no such thing as a neutral, so the question doesn’t arise. The coin does not fall on its edge, or does not stay there very long.

I think the real problem is that people are taking short statements in isolation and interpreting the words legalistically, instead of looking at the context to understand the meaning. Always a mistake. Let
us spread the net a little wider and look at the context in both cases.

“The Pharisees said ‘It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons’… [But Jesus said] “If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you… He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters” (Matthew ch12 vv24-30).

“John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name’… But Jesus said ‘Do not forbid him; for no-one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us’” (Mark ch9 vv38-40).

Almost immediately one more factor occurs to me. Modern readers are allowing themselves to be confused between two different meanings of the English word “with”. In the first quotation, “not with” means “not fighting on the same side”. The man in the second quotation is not part of the group immediately surrounding Jesus, so he can be described as “not with” in a physical sense. If you don’t appreciate that there is a difference, then the first “not with” is “against Jesus” and the second “not with” is “for Jesus”, and that’s the supposed contradiction.

If we look at the quotations in detail, it becomes clear that the Pharisee and the man casting out demons are two entirely opposite characters.
The first is “scattering”, but the second is clearly “gathering”.
The first is against the act of casting out demons, the second is casting out demons himself.
The first is speaking evil against Jesus, the second will not be able to speak evil against him.
The first is not going to do anything “in the name of Jesus”, the second is known to be working in his name.
Finally, the first denies, and the second must be accepting, the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

If they are such complete contraries, it makes perfect sense that Jesus should say “One of them is for me, and the other one is against me”.




posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 05:03 PM
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The sequel to this will be a "God or not-God" theme, mainly Old Testament based, which will be delivered in three or more sections, as proves to be convenient.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 05:56 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Didn't GWB use the same line in a speech? Your either with us or against us in the war on terror.


edit on 3-7-2020 by PhilbertDezineck because: SPELLEN



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:00 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
The line is well-enough known that people have borrowed it.


edit on 3-7-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Which is taken out of context of the original meaning, I doubt that Jesus was talking about going to war to kill the enemy.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:13 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

Didn't GWB use the same line



Yah, but Cheney hadn't turned him to the darkside yet... whats up with that...




posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
Yes, indeed. It's common practice for quotations to become popular by being taken out of context and being given a slightly different meaning. E.g., without leaving the sayings of Jesus, we only have to think of "left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing", which was not meant to be a criticism.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:37 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

Kill the enemy.....but God needed but did not get Israel to kill the left over giants. They prolly had bad DNA..... leftover from the flood one of the daughters of Noah's kids probably had it or the sons

That's why we can't take the mark of the beast that's going to change your DNA.

So back then there was killing to be done I don't like it any more than you don't . The Israel scouts came back with reports that we were like grasshoppers in their sight.

Plus the ones with the following DNA wear getting into wild stuff bestiality and such drinking blood cannibalism.

But there were giants in the land back then and for them to say that they were like grasshoppers in their sight that meant they must been really tall because they're saying that we were like bugs compared to them Brave

So what the Fallen World is a devil's bargain I don't like me anymore you don't.

News it was good, the remedy is almost here closer than you can imagine
edit on 3-7-2020 by GBP/JPY because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 06:39 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Going from a personal for or against me to a for or against (name country or movement) collective. Another is cleanliness is next to Godliness. Which is not a bible verse.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 08:32 PM
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If I met Jesus and said "you are okay as a fellow person but you are no god and I don't answer to you" how do you think he would react?



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

He would of walked on by He doesn't force anyone to fallow Him.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 08:39 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
If I met Jesus and said "you are okay as a fellow person but you are no god and I don't answer to you" how do you think he would react?

Not that I believe the biblical version of Jesus ever existed, but you can be sure he would not react the way his followers do.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 08:44 PM
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a reply to: Klassified

How would that be? The sheep or the goats?



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 10:26 PM
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I doubt if he was the first god to say it...
Or maybe it wasnt the gods who said it at all, but their prophets hearing what they wanted to hear because, well the grass was always greener in the other tribes territory.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 10:56 PM
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originally posted by: dawnstar
I doubt if he was the first god to say it...
Or maybe it wasnt the gods who said it at all, but their prophets hearing what they wanted to hear because, well the grass was always greener in the other tribes territory.


Jeremiah had such a easy life listening and hearing from God. Most of the prophets were despised in their time for speaking out against the sins of Israel.



posted on Jul, 3 2020 @ 11:25 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
If I met Jesus and said "you are okay as a fellow person but you are no god and I don't answer to you" how do you think he would react?


Jesus was very clear about this.
Wipe your feet and walk away.
He also said don’t cast pearls before pigs, that one is pretty harsh and probably directed at the overtly religious people of the day I expect

Though Jesus was for the world Jesus message was not for the world, only for those who accepted it. Jesus never pushed a theocracy, christianity is personal



posted on Jul, 4 2020 @ 12:08 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I don't see how any one cannot see the contradiction in the two verses.

Maybe that's why I'm a non-theist.



posted on Jul, 4 2020 @ 01:10 AM
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a reply to: FyreByrd
Does being a non-theist mean that you want the words of Jesus to be self-contradictory, so that you don't have to take any notice of them, and you will therefore refuse to listen to any explanation? If so, I can't help you.
I don't see that I can explain the matter any more plainly than I've done so already.



posted on Jul, 4 2020 @ 01:14 AM
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originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck
Jeremiah had such a easy life listening and hearing from God.

It took me a moment, there. to recognise the sarcasm, and those who don't know the book might take a little longer. You are thinking, no doubt, of occasions like Jeremiah being thrown into the cistern to drown in mud and sewage.



posted on Jul, 4 2020 @ 01:24 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm
He would read what was in your mind, so you know what his reaction would be better than any of the rest of us can.
Are you supporting, or opposing, his expulsion of demons? Are you gathering his foilowers or scattering them? He would answer accordingly.





edit on 4-7-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



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