I don't understand why people are all worked up over climate change. The earth has seen MANY diferent global climates and yet we are still here.

The earth has seen molten stages, deep freezes, baking heat waves, blacked out skys, increased solar/cosmic radiation, and massive atmospheric changes. Why are people so worried that human kind may have caused one of these shifts? As best i can tell, its simply fear of change.

Claiming a warmer Earth is a bad thing is predicting the future. What if volcanic activity or an asteroid impact blacks out the sjy and freezes us? Isn't warming a good thing then? What if the heat slows down industy and saves many areas from human expansion?

Regardless of the debate on IF we are chaging it, I ask, so what?

Yes, climate change may devestate the world we have built, but we adjust. 30,000 years ago an ice age wiped out tons of species and humans survived it and new species grew from it. So now we face the same, change.

Regardless of the debate on IF we are chaging it, I ask, so what?

Frankely the reason why I care about Human influenced climate change is because I like all my creature comforts. I'm sure you do as well, and continuing to do what we have been doing is not smart at all. I have a personal stake in it as well. I have asthma, and I live near 4 coal plants, a highway and a former garbage dump which is called a "park" now. Just look at all the new diseases that are cropping up. Bird flu, sars etc. I believe we will survive anything short of a 4km asteriod impact.

Quest do you think Humanity would be able to survive a snowball earth?

I don't see how one can not be concerned about global warming. Whether its happening or not is one issue, but, regardless of its occurance, if its happening it should be of a concern. Its not a 'natural' climate change, but what does that matter anyway? Global warming can alter the climate. Obvious no? What else is obvious? That the human food supply is dependant upon climate should be obvious also. As is the human water supply. I'm not convinced that global warming, even if it is happening, is going to result in a global famine, but it might, say, result in the destruction of the US's agricultural base, and the strengthening of another. It can also result, possibly in dangerous weather, which means people can die. There's lots of really dangerous possibilities that have to be considered. Thats why its important that global warming be studied.

Originally posted by Quest
I don't understand why people are all worked up over climate change. The earth has seen MANY diferent global climates and yet we are still here.

These changes were before we got here. Much of it before there was life on Earth.

People who don't care about climate change must either not believe it, not care about life, or not have children. In our life time we will see lives greatly change for the worse because of climate change.
People in Asia will die from floods caused by the melting in the Himalayas.
Life in warmer climates will move north where it wont be so cold anymore. This will alter the food chain in colder climates. More people and homes will be lost because due to increased rain fall.
These are things you will see in your life time.

If things get real bad the oceans will evaporate into space. Nothing will survive that.

Global Warming, Who Cares.
I do.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Quest do you think Humanity would be able to survive a snowball earth?

Considering we made it through the last one with furs, pointy sticks, and a few caves, yes.

So I gather the argument against climate change is humanitarian in nature. Its the effect on us and our current civilizations that seem to be the biggest worry. These things do not oncern me much as, given a long enough time frame, we all die and only the existance of our species and its offshoots matter. Yes, I like my creature comforts, but my personal wants are nothing compared to the long run.

I just find it odd that 15 years ago people were worried about deforestation, and are now worried about a warmer planet with more CO2, perfect for trees and forcing humans to more northern climates.

Originally posted by Umbrax
If things get real bad the oceans will evaporate into space. Nothing will survive that.

Global Warming, Who Cares.
I do.

Sounds like fearmongering. This would require more enegry than all the oil on the planet.

Also, i find it amusing that a possible +10 degrees globally worry people more than world killer asteroids or Nuclear weapons.

I do however accept that change could include the end of humanity, but its highly unlikely gven the things we've been through in the past with virtually no technology.

The prophesies you make about global climate change hold no real prediction value when you aplly global history and science.

Floods? yes. Deaths? Many. Global destruction? virtually impossible even if we stepped up our pollution.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by Quest]

Humans have never been around during a snowball earth. A snowball earth is when the earth is COMPLETELY COVERED IN Snow and Ice. As in the entire planet. Not just the northern and southern hemispheres. Which is what a normal Ice Age is. Ice ages and Snowball earths are completely different.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Yeah all one needs to do to look at runaway global warming is to look at Venus... yeah it's closer to the sun than earth but its farther away then Mercury yet it is hotter. Hot enough to melt lead at the surface btw... I agree something like that will probably not happen within our lifetimes, but it could be the ultimate effect of our activities thousands of years from now. Chain-reactions happen in nature all the time, it's how ice ages start, how fission and fusion work etc. Should we worry about it? Not as much as the immediate danger no. The immediate danger is from increasing temps are, new diseases, drought, flooding and runaway forest fires. Will it affect the whole planet. Probably. Will it make life unbearable for some, I believe it already has. Look at Tuvalu. Will it cause the extinction of the Human race. NO! It may push us back a few hundred years technologically speaking but then again it may not. Frankly instead of asking why people care about it ask why people do not care..

[edit on 14-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Quest
I don't understand why people are all worked up over climate change. The earth has seen MANY diferent global climates and yet we are still here.

You're right the earth has seen many climate changes but this time it is changing because we as humans are directly effecting it.

Echoing Umbrax...

Originally posted by Umbrax
Global Warming, Who Cares.
I do.

Me too


[edit on 14-3-2005 by Event Horizon]

Let's review for a moment here...

The age of the Earth in terms of weather cycles: 4 billion years or so
The age of humanity experiencing these weather cycles: 20,000 years or so
The age of humanity semi-accurately and scientifically studying these weather cycles: 70 years or so

What's 70 years out of 4 billion? That's about .00000000175% of the Earth's weather history. So how can it be that humanity knows so much about the world and its history? We don't! Sure, we'd like to think we know a lot, but the plain truth is we know next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

As Quest so truely pointed out, weather is HIGHLY dynamic. It changes, then it changes again, and it will be gauranteed to change again. Yeah, there are eras with certain trends (ie ice ages, warm spells, etc...). Wasn't the average temperature during the age of the dinosaurs something like 90F? Perhaps we've never fully come out of the last ice age!

I agree that it's just the fear of change. I think the warming of Earth is inevitable. Why not just embrace it an find ways to cope? That would be the best way to plan for the future, instead of wasting time and money on attempting to stop the climate changes.

As for the oceans boiling off the Earth, I really enjoy how you cleverly left off that that would be an effect caused by the dying Sun and NOT from human caused global warming. And you say you're not fear-mongering.

[edit on 3/15/2005 by cmdrkeenkid]

Let me put forth this scenerio...

Humans warm the atmosphere with CO2 production. The raised temperatures then melt glaciers and polar ice, which redirect water and air current causing changes we as human can not adapt to well. Our population drops while many parts of the globe get COLDER and others get warmer. Weather changes, the net temperature raises a bit, but as weather paterns change, sea levels rise, its slows down human expansion. Now, as all these ices melt, this indroduces water just above freezing to the oceans and starts to cool them. At this point no model can predict what happens.

I agree that humans are effecting the climate, a lot. But I've seen so much bogus science trying to prove its impending doom and not just change...

For starters all ocean temperature data is pointless. We've never had deep ocean temperature data before so anyone who claims it "warmer" or "different" is speaking on a ridiculously small time scale.

Secondly, the current CO2 content of the atmosphere, based on human actions, is far less than natural peaks from historic data (air pockets).

Also, worrying about the ocean evaporating is 100% pure fear mongering for the sake of gaining grant money. Water is a massive heat sink. To even get the ocean temperatures to 30 degress C you'd need to burn all the oil on the planet, set off every nuke, have many volcanoes go off, and channel all of that energy directly into the oceans. Its simple thermodynamic. The oceans are vast and deep and very cold.

There is no model showing more than a simple mean temperature gain and anyone who claims there is is falsifying data.

I wondered why Global warming wasnt figured into the making of this place we call earth.

I dont know that I care about something that I will never be touched by.

Sure, humans have done a lot of damage. CFCs are no fun, and are highly detrimental to the atmosphere, but actually, another major contribution to global warming is made by the methane produers. Examples of those would swamps, cows (via thier farts,) and the tons of methane gas trapped in the ice caps. Last time I checked, none of those things were really under human control. Plus, they may be more hazardous than CO2.

[edit on 3/15/2005 by cmdrkeenkid]

Uhh not entirely true cmdkeenkid. We have industrialized farming in the west and they are a big artificial source of greenhouse gasses.(artificial due to the fact that they are raised by us for use by us) C02 may tip the balance is all I'm saying.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
As for the oceans boiling off the Earth, I really enjoy how you cleverly left off that that would be an effect caused by the dying Sun and NOT from human caused global warming. And you say you're not fear-mongering.

[edit on 3/15/2005 by cmdrkeenkid]

Lets take things into context here, you guys are saying that are saying not to worry because life will survive global warming. My response to that was...

If things get real bad the oceans will evaporate into space. Nothing will survive that.

That statement was being questioned so I felt like I had to provide some factual links.
I was pointing out the fact that if the Earth got hot enough the oceans would evaporate. This has nothing to do with me trying to scare you into taking the bus instead of driving to work. Because the links are dealing with the dying sun is irrelevant. Does this change the fact that the oceans will evaporate at 140 degrees? No.

What's 70 years out of 4 billion? That's about .00000000175% of the Earth's weather history. So how can it be that humanity knows so much about the world and its history?

Europe and Asia have been documenting climate for the past 1000 years. The ice caps contain records of the prehistoric climates.
4 billion years ago was the time that life started to show up, as bacteria in the oceans. How can this be compared to life today?

The fact of the matter is Global warming will change life as we know it. I will not sit here and watch people say we don't need to worry or there is nothing we can do.

Originally posted by Umbrax
I was pointing out the fact that if the Earth got hot enough the oceans would evaporate. [...] Because the links are dealing with the dying sun is irrelevant. Does this change the fact that the oceans will evaporate at 140 degrees? No.

The fact that the links are dealing with the Sun dying is not irrelevant. The only thing that could cause the oceans to reach that temperature would be the expanding of the Sun! It's impossible for them to achieve that sort of temperature otherwise. Maybe you missed what Quest already had to say about that...

Originally posted by Quest
To even get the ocean temperatures to 30 degress C you'd need to burn all the oil on the planet, set off every nuke, have many volcanoes go off, and channel all of that energy directly into the oceans. Its simple thermodynamic. The oceans are vast and deep and very cold.

Europe and Asia have been documenting climate for the past 1000 years. The ice caps contain records of the prehistoric climates.

Perhaps you missed the operative words scientifically or accurately in my post. Sure, they may have been documenting it, but how much of the weather history from 500 years ago is as comprehensive as todays? None! They didn't have all the resources or percision that we do today. All of that data is just about irrelevant.

Yeah, the ice caps do contain records of prehistoric climates. I'm not denying that. But some of those prehistoric climates had more CO2 and other greenhouse gasses than our atmosphere does today.

4 billion years ago was the time that life started to show up, as bacteria in the oceans. How can this be compared to life today?

Well, a lot of that bacteria is still around today. Some of it hasn't even evolved, or has barely done so.

The fact of the matter is Global warming will change life as we know it. I will not sit here and watch people say we don't need to worry or there is nothing we can do.

Global warming will change life as we know it. There is a need to worry, and there are things that can be done. Just the majority of people take the passive route. For example, they try and stop global warming with protests, sanctions, etc... Sure, it may stem global warming a bit, but in the long run it's just delaying the process. The proper thing to do would be to just prepare for the impending future.

[edit on 3/15/2005 by cmdrkeenkid]

The proper thing to do would be to just prepare for the impending future.

We do need to prepare. What ideas have been put out there?
Enron is promoting junk science and the major polluting governments are supporting that science. When they claim Global warming is not an issue, they wont be doing anything to prepare for something they say is not a concern. People need to relocate very soon or more lives will be lost. When world leaders are saying nothing is wrong then why would they relocate people?

In the past average global temperatures have reached 25 degrees celcius. Currently our average temperatures are close to 15 degrees. We should at least prepare for that much of a change. I think to sit back and allow the corporate world to put profit before the environment (ie. lives) is the wrong thing to do. I understand some people are passive by nature but letting the world be controlled by polluters is not the way to go.

It's not those doing the polluting that are the main cause of global warming. Sure, some of it is from companies. But the majority is just from nature taking its course. I don't deny that mankind is slighty speeding this process up, but the fact is no matter what steps are taken to stop pollution, global warming is still going to happen.

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
It's not those doing the polluting that are the main cause of global warming. Sure, some of it is from companies. But the majority is just from nature taking its course. I don't deny that mankind is slighty speeding this process up, but the fact is no matter what steps are taken to stop pollution, global warming is still going to happen.

So let me get this straight. You agree that our activities is having an adverse effect on humanity, yet you say Global Warming is nothing to worry about? Seems like one in the same to me. Are you trying to depolitisize the issue by doing so? If you are, it's only giving more fodder to the Oil, Gas and Coal companies. I know you like hard verifiable scientifically sound data. But when dealing with an issue that has been so politisized things can get tricky. You mentioned CFC's as a nasty human emmission. Did you know there is still a push by industry to relax those controls? We have alot of problems and tackling Global Warming is just one facet of the overall picture. It has been overemphesized yes I agree and fearmongering rules large on both sides, one side says we could poison the earth to the point where it will not support human life and the other side saying its a conspiracy to usurp the position of the United States as the premier superpower.

We need to really stop squabling and hammer out a united front against those who care not one whit about poisioning the atmosphere, soil and aquifers. Everything that can be attributed to inceasing Global Warming(the Human Influenced kind) gasses also have other nasty effects, like Coal for instance which releases Mercury into the atmosphere. Internal Combustion from Cars releases harmfull particulates which can embed themselves into the lining of our lungs and cause a whole host of other problems.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by sardion2000]

[edit on 15-3-2005 by sardion2000]