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Where's the balance?

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posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 12:41 PM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

Again, your premise is faulty...

First, you presume that wearing a mask is the "smart" thing to do... that is your opinion, not fact or truth.

I would argue that the "smart" thing to do is to recognize and accept Mother Nature will have her way, and this virus will have to run its course no matter what preventive measures we take, and that our best bet is to control those circumstances that will give us the best chance of survival when we catch the virus.

That would include people staying home -- and/or wearing a face mask when absolutely necessary to be out and about -- when symptomatic and most likely to infect others, but not the asymptomatic. That is about the most we can expect/demand of others. We certainly shouldn't be putting people who can't wear a mask for health reasons on house arrest and denying them their right to live their lives. I'm sure they know much better than you what the risks are, as well as what precautions are necessary and proper for them according to their own needs and circumstances. And those sure aren't met with a one-size-fits-all "solution". Perhaps most important, people have a right to privacy regarding their health issues. It is absolutely unacceptable to put anyone in a position where they must explain, defend or justify their health issues to just go about their business.

However, the biggest priority in terms of the virus itself is what we do for and by ourselves, such as making sure we are eating well, taking appropriate nutritional healing substances, getting ample sun, exercise, and sleep, keeping hydrated, etc. It would also include what we don't do, such as don't drink too much, don't eat too much, don't neglect hygiene and housekeeping, and so on.

If I have not had this virus yet, then I just want to get it and get it behind me, I really can't hope for better circumstances than now in terms of being able to fight it. You don't have to agree, but you have no right or authority (moral or legal) to demand that I serve your wants and druthers and, perhaps, delusions.

Especially because your way (authoritarian) harms me, and my way (libertarian) doesn't harm you... it just doesn't actively serve you.




posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 12:45 PM
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I have a mask on for 6-7 hours of a 9 hour work day. I am a registered Libertarian. I don’t have to wear a mask in many cases, but still do. Statistics are in my favor that I wouldn’t even know if I had Covid, there’s a VERY high and likely chance I’ve been directly exposed to it via my wife, who got very sick in mid-January and EVERY symptom was a symptom of Covid, but I still wear a mask.

For me, I just don’t want a thought echoing in my head if someone I work with came down with it. Or anyone, period. That simple. My freedom to live life freely is only as strong as everyone else’s. My personal feeling regarding masks is that it’s such a small effort to take to hopefully safeguard against infecting someone else and restricting their freedom.

Call me brainwashed or tell me I’m being spoon fed by the MSM I don’t watch, I really couldn’t care less.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: Drucifer

Doing it because you feel better about yourself is cool.

I think a big issue is the virtue signalling assholes of the world who make everything a litmus test. Its all zero sum to them. if i am along side a country creek with only my dog anywhere for 100 yards, why would someone feel the need to snap a photo of me and grandstand on social media about how little I obviously care for others?

That wasn't me...it was someone else who lives in this very small town. The guy who posted it....owns a masonry company. After posting it, he lost every single job he had bids won for because folks are sick of that crap.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 01:58 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: BrianFlanders

Again, your premise is faulty...

First, you presume that wearing a mask is the "smart" thing to do... that is your opinion, not fact or truth.


I believe that it is a fact if you look at it from the perspective that if too many people refuse to wear them and leave the authorities with no choice but to force them. I would rather see people wear them by choice than be forced because the precedent of force being needed (and used) is not a good thing.

You can look at the laws that are already on the books and you can see that some of them probably shouldn't even be necessary. Like noise ordinances. The government should not HAVE TO make a law that says "Do not play loud music all night long every night and disrespect your neighbors". But guess what? Many places have these laws because people did not do the right thing out of plain old common sense and respect for the people around them.

It is also an opinion that loud music is objectionable. Obviously the people who like it don't find it objectionable. So why shouldn't your neighbors blow you out of your bed with loud music every night at 3 AM? It's just good fun for them. If you don't like it, you can move, right?


I would argue that the "smart" thing to do is to recognize and accept Mother Nature will have her way, and this virus will have to run its course no matter what preventive measures we take, and that our best bet is to control those circumstances that will give us the best chance of survival when we catch the virus.


How's that working out in the US? Take a look at the numbers in Japan and compare them to the numbers in the US. Japan (being small and very densely populated for it's size) should have been a disaster and yet it wasn't. Most US states have had more cases than the whole of Japan regardless of population density. What is the difference? The difference is Japanese citizens are not a bunch of self-righteous morons who refuse to inconvenience themselves in a public health crisis. And the US has massively more deaths than Japan (Despite only having about 3 times the population of Japan and far more land and space for people to spread out).


We certainly shouldn't be putting people who can't wear a mask for health reasons on house arrest and denying them their right to live their lives.


And so you're just proving my point that the reason the government usually eventually has to use force is people like you do not do what you should do without being required to. So when this thing just drags on and on and the government eventually has to clamp down, you can reap your harvest.

And I'm sure a lot of these people who are refusing to wear the masks will be the same people who will refuse a vaccine unless it's mandatory. And that will force the government to make it mandatory and then those people will complain that their rights are being violated. Hey. Have you heard of anyone who had Polio lately? We did pretty good against Polio considering we're not supposed to be able to stop diseases.



If I have not had this virus yet, then I just want to get it and get it behind me, I really can't hope for better circumstances than now in terms of being able to fight it. You don't have to agree, but you have no right or authority (moral or legal) to demand that I serve your wants and druthers and, perhaps, delusions.


I do not. And I am not trying to. But the American public is getting a crash course in what happens when you completely disregard reality and eventually, they will come around and vote for the changes that are needed to make this not happen again. When your rights are voted away by the majority, you will just have to deal with it. I am trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be that way. But it will be if people do not change their ways on their own.

This is (perhaps) one of the first times in modern history that the American public has really had to face something quite like this and it is exposing some problems with the mindset that "I'm going to do whatever I want and who cares about you". Most of the time, that mindset is kind of OK as long as you're not going crazy with it. Referring back to my previous example of Japan, it is pretty obvious that when individuals voluntarily prioritize public health in a public health crisis, it actually makes a difference. Anyone who knows anything about Japanese culture can tell you why this is and it was completely predictable that their numbers would be substantially better than ours. And (helpfully) they did not have a leader who refused to acknowledge the gravity of the situation for months on end.


Especially because your way (authoritarian) harms me, and my way (libertarian) doesn't harm you... it just doesn't actively serve you.


I see you really only read the parts of what I wrote that you wanted to. What I said was that if people who find the libertarian philosophy appealing (people like me) do not voluntarily balance our philosophy with reality, society will turn on us. If you do not want authoritarianism, you do not want to do the wrong thing just because you can.
edit on 30-6-2020 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-6-2020 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

And again with the authoritarianism... you're saying we need people to tell us what to do... and then punish us and hurt us if we don't do what they tell us... to protect you, and screw anyone that is hurt in the process.... because you've decided this is the "smart" thing to do. Authoritarianism is not necessary. No one has to force their will on others. It is a choice. The choice of bullies and cowards.

It is just as easy to let people do as they will... letting everyone take the precautions appropriate for themselves... and letting nature take its course.

You are only giving lip service to libertarian principles -- "you can do what you want as long as you want to do what I demand that you do" -- but in the end, you double-down on authoritarianism -- "and if you don't then we'll have to hurt you."



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Drucifer

Doing it because you feel better about yourself is cool.

I think a big issue is the virtue signalling assholes of the world who make everything a litmus test. Its all zero sum to them. if i am along side a country creek with only my dog anywhere for 100 yards, why would someone feel the need to snap a photo of me and grandstand on social media about how little I obviously care for others?


Well, that wasn't really my point. I don't really think people need to wear them in wide open spaces as long as they are not very close to other people at the time. But I would still be leery of walking even six feet behind someone outside if neither of us had a mask. I'm pretty sure it would be OK but I'm not that sure.

Mostly, I'm talking about in confined spaces where people are not even staying 6 feet apart (because they're not following that guideline either). Like, I wouldn't even feel comfortable in a small shop (like so many shops I used to like to go to are) with a mask. I would not be too comfortable even in a store the size of Costco. But that is more the type of situation I'm talking about. It's not a big deal to wear a mask for 45 minutes while shopping.

Admittedly, it's got to be more unpleasant for people who have to wear them all day for their work. But there's no reason their employers can't make provisions for them to take breathers outside or something. My guess would be it's more about protecting themselves from lawsuits. Guy goes into work and the boss tells him he can go outside and take the mask off for 10 minutes out of every hour or whatever. Guy gets COVID and sues his employer because they told him it was OK to take the mask off. Unfortunately, this is something that would probably happen.

But still. Even if a large percentage of people in a store are wearing them, it's better. The more the better.

If you're walking your dog or something and there's no one around, of course you should have to wear one. I do wear mine when I take the trash out because I live in an apartment building and I don't know who has been in the hallway or when. Someone might have just sneezed on their way in or out 2 minutes before I walk through their virus cloud.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

Meh. If i have to work that hard to live on this planet, i don't need to be here anymore.

Take reasonable precautions? Sure. But there is a common argument made about health: there is a point where its not worth living any more. I wash my hands. I avoid crowds. Ill even wear a mask to protect other people. But I will not start planning my life around a virus.

I even put a mask on when at a drive thru, so we aren't talking about someone who isn't willing to be cautious. I guess im just sick of people standing on their soap boxes preaching to me.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: BrianFlanders
I don't really want to put this in the mud pit but I also don't want to get beaten into submission by the mods for putting it in the wrong place. So here it is...

OK, obviously (if you've read any of my posts on this forum) I'm often kind of all over the place and not very consistent in my views and they do tend to change by the day. I'm also (obviously) not an encyclopedia so there are definitely things I don't know or am just clueless about.

But here's what's bugging me (and has been bugging me for years). Libertarianism is (fundamentally) something that always did kind of appeal to me. The basic idea of it is (it seems to me) that smart people do not need to be told what to do. Don't need to be controlled. Don't need to be protected from themselves.

So, this would imply that (if left to their own devices) such people would probably do the right thing by choice, without having to be told what to do or required to do it by law.

And yet, the actual real world manifestation of the libertarian mindset Is the guy who refuses to wear a mask in the middle of a global pandemic and parades around town with a semiautomatic rifle slung over his shoulder like he's in Afghanistan. And often, you'll see that same guy "peacefully protesting" outside the courthouse with his gun.

Now in my world, this is not a smart guy. If libertarianism is your life philosophy, you should hate this guy because he's making you look like an idiot. Here were are after decades of libertarian minded people telling the world that we don't need strict laws and government policies telling us what to do because we're smart enough to take care of ourselves. But we have people who will fight for their right to not wear a mask.

Now let's set aside the debate of whether or not the mask is necessary or effective. If there is even a chance you could save ten lives by wearing a mask in the grocery store, isn't that just the right thing to do? Let's also set aside the fact that there are occasionally legitimate reasons why someone would need to not wear a mask. Such as if they have severe breathing difficulties or something (though if your breathing is already that impaired you probably shouldn't be out wandering around while there's a deadly respiratory illness going around).

I mean, the mask thing is not really what this thread is about. It's just an example. Every day we see examples of the loudest guy in the room being an idiot and nobody standing up and saying "Hey! This idiot doesn't speak for all of us! I'm a libertarian and this guy is a moron!"

There is literally nothing good that is accomplished by doing the wrong thing just because you believe you have the right to be wrong. The main reason why a person would hold the philosophy that we should have the right to be wrong is that sometimes, it's unavoidable. But if you're just strutting around without a mask in a crowded store just because you want to piss people off, that's just dumb and that's just convincing the world you're not smart enough to know what's good for you.

I'm just tired of seeing this. It's almost like someone who hates libertarians is doing these things on purpose to make them look like idiots.


Simple, if you do not exercise your rights, you will loose them. That basic philosophy answers all your questions listed above.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: panoz77


Simple, if you do not exercise your rights, you will loose them. That basic philosophy answers all your questions listed above.


If you "exercise" them irresponsibly, it will be seen as abuse and will obviously cause people to be less tolerant and more open to calls for abolishing said rights. You see what all these shooters have done to gun rights. They haven't succeeded in completely getting rid of the 2nd Amendment but they have definitely made a big dent in public opinion. Public opinion matters and if you choose antisocial behavior as a way of exercising your rights you can almost count on public opinion to turn against you eventually.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:28 PM
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originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: panoz77


Simple, if you do not exercise your rights, you will loose them. That basic philosophy answers all your questions listed above.


If you "exercise" them irresponsibly, it will be seen as abuse and will obviously cause people to be less tolerant and more open to calls for abolishing said rights. You see what all these shooters have done to gun rights. They haven't succeeded in completely getting rid of the 2nd Amendment but they have definitely made a big dent in public opinion. Public opinion matters and if you choose antisocial behavior as a way of exercising your rights you can almost count on public opinion to turn against you eventually.


There is nothing irresponsible about exercising any rights legally. It wouldn't be legal if it was considered irresponsible. Protesting is legal 1A. Riots and arson are not 1A. Open carrying is legal 2A, brandishing is not legal 2A. See how that works? My rights don't end where your feelings begin.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:55 PM
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originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: panoz77


Simple, if you do not exercise your rights, you will loose them. That basic philosophy answers all your questions listed above.


If you "exercise" them irresponsibly, it will be seen as abuse and will obviously cause people to be less tolerant and more open to calls for abolishing said rights. You see what all these shooters have done to gun rights. They haven't succeeded in completely getting rid of the 2nd Amendment but they have definitely made a big dent in public opinion. Public opinion matters and if you choose antisocial behavior as a way of exercising your rights you can almost count on public opinion to turn against you eventually.


There is nothing irresponsible about exercising any rights legally. It wouldn't be legal if it was considered irresponsible. Protesting is legal 1A. Riots and arson are not 1A. Open carrying is legal 2A, brandishing is not legal 2A. See how that works? My rights don't end where your feelings begin.


OK. To give you an example, I just gave your post a star even though I completely disagree with what you're saying. Why did I give you a star if I completely disagree with you? Because it is courteous to thank someone for their effort. I don't always do that but I sometimes flag threads I disagree with because I appreciate the fact that they exist.

And guess what? Giving someone I disagree with a star does not hurt me in any fashion. Wearing a mask to the grocery store does nothing bad to me and makes other people feel more comfortable and less self conscious about wearing one. And there are a whole bunch of little things that some people use their freedom for that are obnoxious and annoying but not illegal. And in many cases, they do it to be obnoxious and to get on people's nerves (and they usually succeed even if they have to keep ramping it up until they get the desired reaction). It also hurts nothing to not do those things and results in more peace and freedom for everyone.



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 12:22 AM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
Libertarianism works as long as outside haters and infiltrators don't wreck it like they have 🤬🚬



Exactly. I do believe a lot of people have pretended to be libertarians just to sabotage with deliberate strawman types of behaviors that caricaturize libertarians as a bunch of malevolent anarchists who just want to live like animals. Of course there are some of those types of people who are attracted to libertarianism too so it's hard to say.



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 07:04 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Boadicea

It's all part of the Bezos master plan. Prison rape the little guy out of business and make everyone order the veg from Amazon.


Which, of course, really sucks because as we all know ... when you like to cook for yourself, it's always the very, very best to rely on someone else to pick your own produce for you. Nothing like ordering rock hard avocados and grass green bananas for that thing you were planning of cooking today, or planning on getting under ripe produce and then getting stuff that has to be used right away ...



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 07:12 AM
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As to the OP:

First off, you are under the assumption that what you see as wise, is actually wise for everyone else in all circumstances, at all times. The kicker is that you don't know their personal lives or circumstances; you have no way of knowing what led them to make the choices they did. You jump to the kneejerk assumption that they're being idiots because they don't fit with what you recognize as "smart". It's not "Brian Flanders" approved, and what you see as they're choice is then categorized as what "brian Flanders" calls idiocy and defiance or dancing naked on a table.

You don't know about this lady's breathing condition.

You don't know about that man's severe claustrophobia.

I'm sure there are other perfectly sound reasons not to wear a mask. Oh, I know ... I go out to exercise sessions twice a week and don't bother. I'm not going to spend an hour at cardio in a mask. Air flow is tough enough without re-breathing CO2 for an hour while I'm at it.

Sometimes, you have to realize that what you consider smart isn't that way for others, and they do make the choices they do for reasons. You and I may or may not agree with those reasons, but they do exist. I would hazard a guess that everyone here examined all of your choices in life, we'd call a good many of them stupid and in need of guidance in the same arrogant way you're making the high-handed assumption that just about everyone around you is too stupid to be trusted to go their own way.



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 07:40 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
Which, of course, really sucks because as we all know ... when you like to cook for yourself, it's always the very, very best to rely on someone else to pick your own produce for you. Nothing like ordering rock hard avocados and grass green bananas for that thing you were planning of cooking today, or planning on getting under ripe produce and then getting stuff that has to be used right away ...


ScAmazon accidentally delivered me someone else's produce, of course they were vegan and I got nasty quinoa, concrete yams, gluten-free blue corn chips, one smooshed tomato and some really bitter kale.

I couldn't even return this!



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 02:19 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
As to the OP:

First off, you are under the assumption that what you see as wise, is actually wise for everyone else in all circumstances, at all times. The kicker is that you don't know their personal lives or circumstances; you have no way of knowing what led them to make the choices they did. You jump to the kneejerk assumption that they're being idiots because they don't fit with what you recognize as "smart". It's not "Brian Flanders" approved, and what you see as they're choice is then categorized as what "brian Flanders" calls idiocy and defiance or dancing naked on a table.

You don't know about this lady's breathing condition.

You don't know about that man's severe claustrophobia.

I'm sure there are other perfectly sound reasons not to wear a mask. Oh, I know ... I go out to exercise sessions twice a week and don't bother. I'm not going to spend an hour at cardio in a mask. Air flow is tough enough without re-breathing CO2 for an hour while I'm at it.

Sometimes, you have to realize that what you consider smart isn't that way for others, and they do make the choices they do for reasons. You and I may or may not agree with those reasons, but they do exist. I would hazard a guess that everyone here examined all of your choices in life, we'd call a good many of them stupid and in need of guidance in the same arrogant way you're making the high-handed assumption that just about everyone around you is too stupid to be trusted to go their own way.


1. Yeah. I'm sure all of those millions of people who are marching around with "Don't tell me what to do!" shirts on are claustrophobic or have severe breathing problems (when they're not running marathons at the gym).

2. Another post that was made without reading anything I wrote except what they wanted to see. Not worth a full response if you can't read the rest of the thread before you accuse me of things I did not say (and I explicitly pointed out what I meant multiple times because you're not the only one who did this, and thus, are not adding anything new to the conversation).

3. I know people who refuse to wear a mask because they're friggin stupid and stubborn and they just don't care. Those are the people I'm talking about.



posted on Jul, 1 2020 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
Libertarianism works as long as outside haters and infiltrators don't wreck it like they have 🤬🚬



People said that of every unworkable -ism ever.

As Churchill said, democracy is a a terrible system but it's the best one we've got.




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