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Where's the balance?

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posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 05:47 AM
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I don't really want to put this in the mud pit but I also don't want to get beaten into submission by the mods for putting it in the wrong place. So here it is...

OK, obviously (if you've read any of my posts on this forum) I'm often kind of all over the place and not very consistent in my views and they do tend to change by the day. I'm also (obviously) not an encyclopedia so there are definitely things I don't know or am just clueless about.

But here's what's bugging me (and has been bugging me for years). Libertarianism is (fundamentally) something that always did kind of appeal to me. The basic idea of it is (it seems to me) that smart people do not need to be told what to do. Don't need to be controlled. Don't need to be protected from themselves.

So, this would imply that (if left to their own devices) such people would probably do the right thing by choice, without having to be told what to do or required to do it by law.

And yet, the actual real world manifestation of the libertarian mindset Is the guy who refuses to wear a mask in the middle of a global pandemic and parades around town with a semiautomatic rifle slung over his shoulder like he's in Afghanistan. And often, you'll see that same guy "peacefully protesting" outside the courthouse with his gun.

Now in my world, this is not a smart guy. If libertarianism is your life philosophy, you should hate this guy because he's making you look like an idiot. Here were are after decades of libertarian minded people telling the world that we don't need strict laws and government policies telling us what to do because we're smart enough to take care of ourselves. But we have people who will fight for their right to not wear a mask.

Now let's set aside the debate of whether or not the mask is necessary or effective. If there is even a chance you could save ten lives by wearing a mask in the grocery store, isn't that just the right thing to do? Let's also set aside the fact that there are occasionally legitimate reasons why someone would need to not wear a mask. Such as if they have severe breathing difficulties or something (though if your breathing is already that impaired you probably shouldn't be out wandering around while there's a deadly respiratory illness going around).

I mean, the mask thing is not really what this thread is about. It's just an example. Every day we see examples of the loudest guy in the room being an idiot and nobody standing up and saying "Hey! This idiot doesn't speak for all of us! I'm a libertarian and this guy is a moron!"

There is literally nothing good that is accomplished by doing the wrong thing just because you believe you have the right to be wrong. The main reason why a person would hold the philosophy that we should have the right to be wrong is that sometimes, it's unavoidable. But if you're just strutting around without a mask in a crowded store just because you want to piss people off, that's just dumb and that's just convincing the world you're not smart enough to know what's good for you.

I'm just tired of seeing this. It's almost like someone who hates libertarians is doing these things on purpose to make them look like idiots.




posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:01 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

Why wont you just do what I say?

I mean. It's for the children!!



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:02 AM
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Libertarianism works as long as outside haters and infiltrators don't wreck it like they have 🤬🚬



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:11 AM
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Sounds like you want me to be a sheep. My liberties do not end where someone's feelings begin. If they all want to be herd animals that's fine, but I have a family of cattlemen, and we do not do that. We are the herders.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:14 AM
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I've always thought of it as the third party. Not as big as the Ds and Rs, but a good alternative.

Of course when I vote libertarian, it's when I can't bring myself to vote any other ticket, like a protest vote.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:24 AM
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A libertarian point of view is , I don't care what anyone does unless they are infringing on my rights , liberty , or pursuit of happiness .
Or cause harm to themselves or any other.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 06:29 AM
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originally posted by: KnoxMSP
Sounds like you want me to be a sheep. My liberties do not end where someone's feelings begin. If they all want to be herd animals that's fine, but I have a family of cattlemen, and we do not do that. We are the herders.


Not at all. I want you to use common sense. I want everyone to be free. If a handful of people are taking freedom to such extremes that they are determined to do whatever they feel like doing even if it's completely wrong and it ends up having disasterous consequences, it's going to wreck everyone's freedom in the long run.

With the mask example as a template, if there's no reason you can't wear one and you're just doing it to be contrary, that's pretty short-sighted and reckless and will have consequences for everyone whose freedom depends on you to use your freedom wisely and make the right choices. If you're just going to abuse it, it's going to go away and people in the future are going to pay for this recklessness.

In this context, "balance" means that you shouldn't express your freedom of expression by dancing naked on a table in a busy fast food restaurant. So if you do not use restraint, good judgment and respect, you will eventually end up having your rights voted away by people who have gotten tired of giving you the benefit of the doubt.
edit on 30-6-2020 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:20 AM
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At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, Franklin was queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation. In the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention, a lady asked Dr. Franklin “Well Doctor what have we got, a republic or a monarchy.” Franklin replied, “A republic . . . if you can keep it.”



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

Let's take this down to the nitty gritty. Your basic premise is that we need "smart" people to tell us the right thing to do.... such as wearing masks. There is no room in your premise for these "smart" people telling us the wrong thing to do. To be more specific, telling us to do what is clearly NOT in our best interests for THEIR best interests.

The true Libertarian position begins with the basic truth that when other people have power over us they will use that power for their benefit at our expense because -- say it with me -- power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. THEREFORE we must maintain individual rights and autonomy in order to ensure that each and every one of us can do what is best for ourselves, in accordance with our needs, circumstances and druthers. Which is the very purpose of our Constitutional Republic: to guarantee and protect the absolute Natural Rights of the smallest minority... the individual.

The Libertarian position allows for and empowers each of us to do what is best for ourselves. The authoritarian position demands that everyone does the same thing knowing that it will harm some while protecting others.

If I have issues that preclude me from wearing a mask -- any issue, including philosophical issues -- it has no bearing on anyone else as long as they are free to make their own choices for themselves.

We cannot stop this virus. Nature will take its course. Masks will not stop this. Even if everyone in the world wore a mask 24/7, it will just drag out the inevitable. But you want to put some people in harm's way for your own false sense of security and exercise in futility.

Where is the balance???



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

In many ways, they're just committing acts of defiance. I'm sure if the government told them it's illegal to wear masks in public they'd start wearing them. lol That's why they don't want to wear them now, and that's why they protest with their guns out. It's all about not wanting to be told what to do, hence the "Don't tread on me." mindset.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:40 AM
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Same tactic used for "going green" or "Climate Change" or "Global Warming".

Do what we say, no arguing, or you want to kill people.

What on earth makes you think healthy people walking around wearing masks is "doing the right thing"?



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:44 AM
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originally posted by: BrianFlanders if there's no reason you can't wear one and you're just doing it to be contrary, that's pretty short-sighted and reckless and will have consequences for everyone whose freedom depends on you to use your freedom wisely and make the right choices


Say's who (WHO, lol)? Which doctors are you listening to? It sounds to me like you are eating up lies from the MSM, and the alphabet orgs.

I am now getting numbers from a direct source (no, I am not ousting this person and posting anything online about it), and I know the hospitalization rates, death rates, and the gross over reporting of covid in a certain area's hospitals in my state, and I know 100% we are being lied to.

When did people start trusting Govt' agencies? Do you believe the Government is 100% honest? If not, why are they 100% right now?



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:49 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

A grocery store is private property and can dictate policy, a public street isn't and people can GFT if they have a problem with me not wearing a mask outside.

I used to visit the local farmer's market every Saturday until they made it mask required for being outdoors, I voted with my money and go elsewhere now.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 07:52 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: BrianFlanders

A grocery store is private property and can dictate policy, a public street isn't and people can GFT if they have a problem with me not wearing a mask outside.

I used to visit the local farmer's market every Saturday until they made it mask required for being outdoors, I voted with my money and go elsewhere now.


THIS!!!!

My local Target enforced masks (they do not now), so I now shop at the local grocer who is 10 mins away instead of 5 mins away, who didn't require masks. Works out better anyways. Meat prices are cheap at the local as they get most of their meat here in Florida or the SE, and target jacked up the price on all their meats.

If I don't like something I vote with my ballot and my wallet. I don't burn it down.
edit on 30-6-2020 by KnoxMSP because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:05 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: BrianFlanders

I used to visit the local farmer's market every Saturday until they made it mask required for being outdoors, I voted with my money and go elsewhere now.


No one seems to be considering this unintended consequence, eh?

I have also changed my shopping and spending habits due to the (state imposed) face mask requirement. Including my preference to shop locally and support local businesses. And I expect to keep some of these habits after the madness is long gone.

On the other hand, maybe these are the intended consequences. Everything else being done seems determined to destroy small businesses in particular and the middle class economy generally.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

It's all part of the Bezos master plan. Prison rape the little guy out of business and make everyone order the veg from Amazon.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:16 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

It used to be. . . .

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire


Now it's. . . . .

"What you say or do offends me, so stop."



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:18 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: BrianFlanders

A grocery store is private property and can dictate policy, a public street isn't and people can GFT if they have a problem with me not wearing a mask outside.

I used to visit the local farmer's market every Saturday until they made it mask required for being outdoors, I voted with my money and go elsewhere now.


I understand your point, but also feel it's rather silly. I also hate wearing masks, I have to wear them 8-9 hours for my job, so when I'm outside of work I never wear it unless someplace I want to go requires it. To be so mad that you stop giving business to a company over a mask does seem rather folly, imo.

So what if you're over a friends house and they tell you to use a coaster for your drink?? Do you use a coaster, or do you stop going to that friends house because you don't believe in coasters?? To me, it's a similar concept and a matter of respect. If you respect your friend, then you use a coaster. If you enjoyed shopping at that farmers market, then wear a mask for 10-15 minutes, or however long you would be there shopping. Do you not respect the people there enough to even do that?? I mean, you said you used to visit there every Saturday, did they not earn even that amount of respect??



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:20 AM
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originally posted by: Necrobile
To be so mad that you stop giving business to a company over a mask does seem rather folly, imo.


Mad? More annoyed by the inconvenience. I'm not interested in furthering the fraud that's being perpetrated.

So what if you're over a friends house and they tell you to use a coaster for your drink???


My friend's house is private, the streets the market sets up on are public. Not sure why this difference needs to get explained again.



posted on Jun, 30 2020 @ 08:23 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Boadicea

It's all part of the Bezos master plan. Prison rape the little guy out of business and make everyone order the veg from Amazon.


Well, Amazon has already lost me for other reasons...

I guess I need to expand my veggie patch! Maybe a couple more fruit trees as well... And maybe it's about time I get my butt in gear and stop just threatening to get some laying hens and actually do it...



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