No clemency for cross! War Memorial Cross must go!

What is the big deal about a symbol? let them have the cross, the symbol is man made and let them worship what they have created themselves.

US worship so many symbols is actually funny when they are fighting for them.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by edsinger
Well lets look at that a minute, SF, LA, SD all of these are some of the most liberal cities in the nation.

You do understand that being a 'liberal' does not mean that you are not a christian right? There are very liberal people who worship christ as saviour.

50% 60% who knows but it is a hell of a lot less than say Indiana or Kansas.

Honestly. Try 80 percent as a lo estimate.

Well Pro-Choice Christians? I have a problem with that but that is just me as I do not know the relationship with God, I just find it hard that someone can worship Christ when he specifically warns against harming children.

Originally posted by edsinger
Well Pro-Choice Christians? I have a problem with that but that

Apparently jesus and the disciples didn't. Accept jesus as your saviour and you are saved.


That cross is being taken down because a majority of the christians in charge over there decided to take it down.

You know last night I fully got the point about what is going in American since we have a president that is so............. "born Christian"

Our nation is now divided one more again, and thanks to the Terri case in Florida, between the "Secular groups" and the "Christian Americans"

One is a minority pushing their "bible views, and retaking American for Christ" they want intervention by the Government in personal matters by the bible, the other ones are the majority "Christian worshiper" that like American the way it is with our constitutional rights protected, yes they like changes as long as the "Federal government" doesn't get involved in our private lives.

Now you can tell Ed who is pushing the agenda on the Cross, now ed what side you belong, on the "secular extremist minority" or the "Christian majority"

Originally posted by marg6043Now you can tell Ed who is pushing the agenda on the Cross, now ed what side you belong, on the "secular extremist minority" or the "Christian majority"

They can also be called complacent Christians, just as some of the Christians were in the late 30's in Germany.

Christ never taught go with the flow and He also taught that his followers will be hated because of Him.

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by marg6043Now you can tell Ed who is pushing the agenda on the Cross, now ed what side you belong, on the "secular extremist minority" or the "Christian majority"

They can also be called complacent Christians, just as some of the Christians were in the late 30's in Germany.

Or they can be extremely pious christians, just like some of the christians were in teh late 30's in germany.

Christ never taught go with the flow

He said to give an attacker the other cheek after they've hit one. He said to not struggle against evil. Sounds like going with the flow.

He also taught that his followers will be hated because of Him.

And, indeed, we have here that so many christians are being hated and their very christianess is called in to question, heck they're even called nazis, simply because they are being christian about this matter of the cross. The people that are taking this cross down and that want a more secular public society are christians, and they are hated for it.

A secular society that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Its a contradiction in terms.

Freedom of religion is another thing all together. Just look at the 'secularist' Europe.


I recently heard a good description of the difference between Europe and the United States.


In Europe the Mosques are full and the Church's empty, I guess you can see how the US fits into that.

Originally posted by edsinger
I recently heard a good description of the difference between Europe and the United States.


In Europe the Mosques are full and the Church's empty, I guess you can see how the US fits into that.

Do you mean that the churches are full in the US, and their hearts are empty? Thier heads?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Christ never taught go with the flow

He said to give an attacker the other cheek after they've hit one. He said to not struggle against evil. Sounds like going with the flow.

Say what now? Strange philosiphy coming from a guy who wreked up a a temple for changing money in there! I'd like to know where he said not to struggle against evil.

EDIT: Whoops, just checked the verse, and it does say not to struggle against someone who is evil. Another post will follow this one when I have a bit more time, as the interpretation you have, Nyg, I believe is incorrect. I'll justify that explanation, too. Let not your heart be troubled

[edit on 4-15-2005 by junglejake]

Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by edsinger
I recently heard a good description of the difference between Europe and the United States.


In Europe the Mosques are full and the Church's empty, I guess you can see how the US fits into that.

Do you mean that the churches are full in the US, and their hearts are empty? Thier heads?

No it means that the US still has people of faith and faith plays an important part of our lives no matter the brand.

Europe is growing to be what communism tried to force -atheism-

That is except for the Muslims.

Funny how the Left Behind series dealt with the Islam issue.....I found it comforting to some extent.

Well, the bible is best selling book, number two is Quotations from Mao Zhang Tung, the Chinese dictator. So, best selling doesn't mean much. Ok, so the book is popular? Candles in the Wind by Sir Elton John is the number 1 best selling song ever, so popular doesn't mean good.

Also, fine, let's get a Swastika in there to too represent all the Neo Nazis, and a Pentagram for witches, a Star of David for Jews, a Science book for atheists, uh, whatever symbol Islam has, and whatever else. Either represent all religons or none. Also, I like how you think that anyone who's head isn't up their ass is a non-christian, wait, good point. So I guess there aren't any christians in California, at least none so brainwashed they voted for the guy who wants to control the world, oh and his puppet GWB.

San Diegans vote to keep cross, ACLU fights

I for one am glad to read this, and there of course is that nasty ACLU hammering Christians again......makes me sick

The VOTERS have spoken, let it go TULIPWALKERS!





"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

– Barry Goldwater

A troubling sign in the city of San Diego surfaced last week that's becoming the norm instead of an exception: Low voter turnout in municipal elections based on apathy.

Last week, by a margin of 76 to 24 percent, San Diego voters passed "Proposition A" to protect the cross high atop the Mt. Soledad National War Memorial. A special election was called to elect a new mayor and to find the people's will on the possible removal of the cross from the memorial.

I'm thankful Prop A passed, but what troubles me is that less than 28 percent of the registered voters went to the polls to exercise their precious right to vote!



LINK

Originally posted by edsinger
Political Correctness gone nuts!

First of all, I do think it's sad that the cross has to come down, but I understand it fully.

This isn't political correctness. This is about law. This is about the Constitution.

It may seem like Christianity is under attack, but the truth is that for many years, this country has ignored the First Amendment regarding respecting an establishment of religion. By putting up a cross and NOT putting up a symbol of every religion (and atheism), they are singling out Christianity as the 'official' religion.

It is only recently that people have started to speak out about the country's blatant disregard of the first Amendment. If a government or public place erects a symbol of one religion, it's bound by the Constitution to erect a symbol of all.

So, unfortunately, ed, you may see a lot more of this happening across the country. But it's not an attack on Christianity, but a demand for equal voice. I don't think the government's willing to invest in putting up symbols of all religions everywhere, so the crosses, the 10 commandments, the holy statues are most likely going to be coming down.

They made the mistake by assuming that this was a legal thing to do in the first place. Now people are demanding that they rectify their mistake.

I suggest someone invent a symbol that represents all religions (including atheism), then it could be put up all over and everyone would be happy, no?

Originally posted by Benevolent HereticIt may seem like Christianity is under attack, but the truth is that for many years, this country has ignored the First Amendment regarding respecting an establishment of religion. By putting up a cross and NOT putting up a symbol of every religion (and atheism), they are singling out Christianity as the 'official' religion.

So what do we do about heritage and what not?

Its ok to slam what the country has represented for most of its life? We are not telling anyone they can not worship Allah or a green tree toad if the case may be, but our heritage is being threatened. When we take God out of everything, then we will fall and we are seeing the beginnings now.

Odd thing is its what the Muslims hate most about the Great Satan is it deliberate embrace of Anti-God.

Take a good look at Europe.....that is not how I want the United States to end up, they abandoned God, and they pay the price...

Originally posted by edsinger
So what do we do about heritage and what not?

The heritage of the US contains many ideals and practices. Some have come with us through the years, some have been abolished, some have been changed. It's all good. The proud heritage of the US is still strong in many people and I encourage it. The ideal that this country was formed on is with us today.

Take a good look at Europe.....that is not how I want the United States to end up, they abandoned God, and they pay the price...

Ed, I would never suggest you abandon God! I support and respect people's devotion to their religion and their expression of it. However, it does not apply to everyone. Wear your symbols on your person, display them in your yards and in your church. Speak of your religion to others. Participate in religious activities all you want as long as it doesn't impose on public lands or on others' personal space. You are free to worship as you see fit, as long as it doesn't effect other people.

Honestly, would you be ok if the Star of David replaced every public cross?

We are guaranteed the right to freedom of religion. Everyone, not just the Christians. And the Christian forefathers made sure that was clear.

So I would guess you want "In God We Trust" off the currency?

Maybe the US President should be banned from taking the oath with a Bible? How about courtrooms? See what you fail to realize is, where does this "Take God out of everything public" stop?

Its part of our history, it was fine for over 200 years. Why now is it so evil?

Here it is, again *sigh*

so, once again, I will have to explain it:

belief in God does not, repeat does NOT, equal Christianity! Got it, this time?

a very, very, very large percentage of the world's population believes in God (in one way or another) while a much smaller percentage of them believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Edited to add this link: www.adherents.com...

I believe in God. I am not a Christian. I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. I believe in God.

this is so tiresome...

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Al Davison]

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Also, fine, let's get a Swastika in there to too represent all the Neo Nazis, and a Pentagram for witches, a Star of David for Jews, a Science book for atheists, uh, whatever symbol Islam has, and whatever else. Either represent all religons or none.

Well, I'll be...We actually agree on something. If neo-nazis (lower case on purpose ) want to display a swastika, let them. It may be hard to convince a city that it would be a good idea to put on public land, but if they did, I have no problem with it going up. For some, it may be a call to arms, a staunch symbol defining their hatrid of a group of people. However, for me, it would be a reminder of what hate can breed. If I didn't like it and felt it didn't represent the community, I would write to the city explaining that. I wouldn't take them to court and sue to have it removed because this is a representative democracy. One individual shouldn't get to change the nation, state or city to suit their own wants, ignoring the majority's. If you're in a community where the majority of people could identify with the swastika, put one up. If you're in a community where the majority of people could identify with a pentagram, put one up. If you're a community where the majority could identify with a complete lack of anything religious, take it down. It shoud, nay must be dependant on the majority of the population, though, not some vindictive individual or a puffed up, self rightous group that doesn't even live in that community.

Originally posted by junglejake
If neo-nazis (lower case on purpose

) want to display a swastika, let them. It may be hard to convince a city that it would be a good idea to put on public land, but if they did, I have no problem with it going up.

That's exactly the issue. If the city allows the cross they MUST allow the other symbols or they're representing a specific religion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
That's exactly the issue. If the city allows the cross they MUST allow the other symbols or they're representing a specific religion.

No, they don't. They were elected by the people because the people believed those individuals would best represent the community. Their decisions are representative of their communities. If they decide to vote down putting a pentagram up in the park and the community doesn't like that, they can express their opinion by voting that council member out of office, then put up the pentagram.

It's like the gay pride parades. Cities have gay pride parades, but won't allow hetero-pride parades. You have crackpots like myself complaining about this issue and trying to bring it to people's attention, but the majority of the population must be in agreement of only allowing gay pride parades because cities are still doing it and people aren't being voted out of office as a result. Does that mean that the city endorses the gay lifestyle and condemns the heterosexual one? Nope. Does that mean there are no heterosexuals in the city? Nope.

The Constitution has lasted as long as it has because it was set up to change with the times. It mearly states the foundations for this country, but we're putting in all kinds of bi-lines and addendums to it that make it more and more specific, possibly leading to its downfall. The decision should be left to the people, not judges, to decide.