Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
I think you missed my point. Math doesn't need any divine instruction. There's no actual evidence that any deity just decided 1+1=2 or that a square has four sides or that a hydrogen atom has one proton. There's no evidence that any of these facts were engineered.

Intelligible systems necessarily come from something intelligent. You know a car was engineered because it serves a purpose and requires intelligent humans to create it. Cars don't come to be by random chance. Human bodies, along with all other biological life, are even more complex than cars. Organisms are reproducible, self-repairing, self-aware, emotional, rational, self-cleaning and so on. Therefore if cars require intelligent input, it is without a doubt that more complex organic biological organisms require logical input.

Here’s my theory for the moment lol I am not a religious person at all, but I believe there is a truth in the passage “let there be light”. My thoughts on light is it is a kind of double helix strand for reality, hence the wave-particle duality which could contain all the necessary bits of data to create everything. And for some reason conscienceness plays a role with the whole concienceness causes collapse theory, I can’t ever argue with Von Neumann lol.
Now thinking of concienceness, would it not be an ingredient that we inherited from our creator which would be our earth or even our sun? So would it be somehow possible that our earth or sun could have a concienceness, and if so, what kind of concienceness would that be? Would they be considered gods?
So each light in the dark universe could be a god of some sort, each of the hundreds of billions of stars in the universe is a god , born of concienceness? Whoa awesome lol btw I love you all

a reply to: cooperton

His existence is obvious - our A.D. / B.C. calendar is based around Him. He did no wrong, and was therefore fully righteous. He fulfilled the core aspects of Jewish prophecy. He called God our Father and proved His word was True by conquering death and performing many other miracles throughout His life.

Bingo!

I was wondering why you believed there was no planets outside our solar system, and I wondered why you refused to tell me how old you think the world is, now I know why.

Please tell me. What evidence to you have that the religon you follow is reason, and the other religons are false.

Alot of people's faith is basked on where they were brought up, and how they were brought up.

If you were born and brought up in say Iraq, chances are, you would be Muslim right? And you would be saying how Islam is the one true religon.

So, it has nothing to do with evidence, but circunstances, that's all.

Is there a God? My personal opinion, no chance. At least not the God from the religons we have because there is absolutly no evidence, yet overwhelming evidence that books like the bible and Quran were written by normal primitive human beings.

Since the dawn of man, we have had Gods, and sadly, will always have Gods, and people will always want to believe.

But my real problem with this is this.You read books like the bible, and the Quran, and God is brutal, i mean really brutal. Sexist, racist, homophobic, control freak, dictator, sociopathic etc

Why would anyone want to worship a being like that? and why does God sound like a primitive human being. Could it be because these booked were written by primitive people?

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]



Before we can have an honest intelligent productive exchange of thoughts, we have got to concur on definitions of words - words are the means by which we get to talk at all.

For posters here who are into mathematics as the proof for God's existence, you have got to first define what is mathematics, and even more first you have got to define what is God.

Next, you have got to know the distinction between concept and object: that concept is in man's mind, so when a man does not have a mind he can't even at all think, much less talk.

Then you have got to show that God is also as a word it is in man's mind, but as an object it is in the concrete reality that is outside and independent of man's mind.

What about the universe? It is first the material universe, and second it is the one that man can observe, for the total material universe is much much much greater that what man can observe - so if you want a material God, there is plenty of space for God to have residence in, in the totality of the material universe.

There, dear posters here: do honest intelligent productive thinking on my tips above addressed to everyone with a mind, who are keen to resolve the issue, God exists or not.


Appendix:

posted on Jun, 26 2020 @ 04:36 PM

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]




This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?




As I am the only poster here with the definition of God at the top of my post, I am entitled to talk about the issue God exists or not, God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.



This is my procedure for proving the existence of God.

1. I know for a fact that existence is the default status of reality.

2. I know for a fact that the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago.

3. I know for a fact that living things like for examples - babies and roses - have a beginning at the very point in time their sexual reproduction takes place.

4. My definition of God is the following: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

5. No. 2 and No. 3 are about objects outside of our mind and independent of our mind, and they have beginnings to their existence: it follows that they are evidence to the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

6. Therefore: I have proven from evidence that God is the entity in existence or in the default status of reality [see No. 1]: because God corresponds to my definition of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.



Further Affiant Sayeth Naught.

Wishing everyone - Happy honest intelligent productive thinking!

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]



Addendum:

Dear everyone, do you at all notice how writers even the best and most honest intelligent productive ones, they eschew defining the crucial words that mean something in their works?


WHY!?


If you are honest intelligent productive, you will think about my challenge to you, WHY?


Otherwise you are just regurgitating stale rote memory materials from other people's thinking and writing, who could also be into regurgitating rote materials from similar rote brains.

God is the force of creation - to assume it takes one form or another is beyond our realm of understanding.


The golden rule says do onto others and they would do onto you - thats the basis for civilization.


The bible codifies it by significance and explains the crimes that can't necessarily be seen and judged by men will be dealt by the creator.

The bible is also a moral compass, if someone murders - the punishment should be a swift death, not by torture.

Do you need a god for common sense, no - you need a god to set the rules of the game that leads to common sense.

Lastly - either god is all knowing all powerful, all time - or not - if there is a blindspot in sentient god - you can have free choice, otherwise it's a joke to claim there is.

They may not be a god, which is why aliens came back from future earth to probe cows and fly around bored AF.

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]




Addendum 2

I challenge everyone here who is honest intelligent and productive to put down into a list of steps to prove whatever contention, you are keen to convince everyone else that you have some worthy thought, for everyone to take into serious consideration.


Forgive me for the repetition, but I just think that my post below is the only one so far, that has a procedure of step by step exposition of my resolution on the issue God exists or not, in the affirmative.


So, I challenge anyone here, do a procedure of step by step, if you really are honest intelligent and productive, and motivated to share with mankind what to yourself is a very worthy thought for mankind - to take into serious consideration.

Otherwise you are just into inanity vanity.



Appendix:

posted on Jun, 26 2020 @ 04:36 PM

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]




This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?




As I am the only poster here with the definition of God at the top of my post, I am entitled to talk about the issue God exists or not, God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.



This is my procedure for proving the existence of God.

1. I know for a fact that existence is the default status of reality.

2. I know for a fact that the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago.

3. I know for a fact that living things like for examples - babies and roses - have a beginning at the very point in time their sexual reproduction takes place.

4. My definition of God is the following: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

5. No. 2 and No. 3 are about objects outside of our mind and independent of our mind, and they have beginnings to their existence: it follows that they are evidence to the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

6. Therefore: I have proven from evidence that God is the entity in existence or in the default status of reality [see No. 1]: because God corresponds to my definition of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.



Further Affiant Sayeth Naught.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
What evidence to you have that the religon you follow is reason, and the other religons are false.

Jesus was the only prophet to conquer death. He has a moral code of pacifism, peace, love, hope, altruism, and so on, and these very much resonate with the ideals I believe are true.

Alot of people's faith is basked on where they were brought up, and how they were brought up.

If you were born and brought up in say Iraq, chances are, you would be Muslim right? And you would be saying how Islam is the one true religon.

Islam also believes Jesus is Al-Masih, meaning the Messiah. I don't focus on the differences in approach, because the core love for the Most High God should be the focus. God knows his own, and they are incapable of losing Him no matter where they may be, or where they were raised.

But my real problem with this is this.You read books like the bible, and the Quran, and God is brutal, i mean really brutal. Sexist, racist, homophobic, control freak, dictator, sociopathic etc

Jesus is the uninhibited embodiment of the Most High God - where did He exhibit any of those qualities? I'll save you time - nowhere. He was the opposite of everything you just said. He was the embodiment of righteousness and truth. If you want to get into Old Testament Theology I'd be glad to. But I don't think you care, you have already made up your mind, you just want to try to prove your point and will avoid any new information that would present you with a change of mind.

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]




Addendum 3

I know God exists, Who is in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, as certain i.e. without doubt knowledge, not as a belief.

If I speculate based upon all known data points; the physical existence of beings called gods is either extra terrestrials or very irresponsible time travelers.

As for the "G" God. Quantum and Temporal Nonlocality, proven in experimentation 5+ years ago states that; 1)Time is not Linear, 2) Data exists inside of every Elementary/SubAtomic Particle, 3)This data flows in a currently unknown flow throughout the whole of Space/Time. If this is combined with the understanding that; we are not using the whole of our Brain-power/capacity & simply reclassifying our bodies as very sensitive transmitters/recievers for the brain, and you disavow an assumption (as it has never been proven) that there is actual physical mass of elementary "particles" and instead decide they are actually existing in a fluid wavelength state 100% of the time, this explains the consistent natural reformation of the golden rectangle as a simple byproduct of reaction with gravity/time itself as it flows.

With these factors combined with understanding that Time is Unlimited, then it is not only entirely possible that we live inside of a sentient being (and even if we do not we surely have the ability to selectively network to any other sentient being in all of space/time to not only experience what they have but to directly communicate with them- thus showing a natural function of reality to hear "the voice" alongside the technological ways), but that when we learn to control all actual abilities of our own Brain/Body that we can, by our will/choice in interacting with space/time, commit to actions considered as miracles or super hero level feats of a nearly unlimited scope of abilities. These "powers" have been noted historically to have existed, several thousands of times already. However, we are brainwashed from birth to doubt as to become better workers in a system born from slavery/aristocracy and as such very few have placed the pre-requisite time into mastering their own existence. My initial estimates show a required 50,000 hours to unlock such.

Edited to add: If you take historical references of "G" god and consider them as heavily redacted to control others- then you are left with a story of an experiment. Since data is in everything and we can interact with it almost too easily, clear assumptions can be made in regards to why we were "commanded" (or just killed if we did not) commit to a pre-specified standard operational procedure of existing. When seen in this view; laughter is contagious as it is data, sadness is contagious because it is data, etc. then an ultimate synopsis is that "the end" is not some psychotic anarchists delerious dream spawned from weeks of ingesting maleria ridden stagnant water & rotting food, but is actually the end of an experiment that involves a purposeful seperation period of our specied from all others in the universe. Quite possibly, they noted the birth of tyranny & oppression or even seeded it into our civilization specifically so we could inevitably over come the knee jerk reaction to kill some thing on sight. As for weird dietary requirements; pork has been known to be riddled with parasites that are difficult to kill unless properly cooked & history is also riddled with data regarding other beings "gods" using blood & body parts as base level materials to create other things. This is beyond reasonable when assumed that an intergalactic or tine travelling civilization would be able to manipulate the very constituent components of our universe and an rDNA strand has several billion little lego pieces to take apart and use in another way.

a reply to: Pachomius

God's existence is a certainty. Patterns, mathematics, the intelligence imbued in each human, and so on are all indications of an Intelligent source. the synergistic relationship between organisms is inexplicable by sequential piece-by-piece modifications (evolution), and is only explained by a system that gets implemented simultaneously. Since both require the other, they both need to be implemented simultaneously for it to work.

And of course, the genetic code needed something Intelligent to code it.

a reply to: Pachomius

There is nothing honest about you...

Again....

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

6. Therefore: I have proven from evidence that God is the entity in existence or in the default status of reality [see No. 1]: because God corresponds to my definition of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

The only thing you have done is justified your own logic through your own experience. Ignoring other people’s own faith, while practicing this intellectually dishonest charade of seeming to want other people’s Input. When you only wanted to preach, with no actual desire for debate. And falsely accusing people of talking about religion.

Again. The question of god, starts with the question of evil. Is good and evil real? Or hollow beliefs meaningless in the context of natural selection?

What do you say?

a reply to: Pachomius

There is nothing honest about you...

Again....

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

6. Therefore: I have proven from evidence that God is the entity in existence or in the default status of reality [see No. 1]: because God corresponds to my definition of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

The only thing you have done is justified your own logic through your own experience. Ignoring other people’s own faith, while practicing this intellectually dishonest charade of seeming to want other people’s Input. When you only wanted to preach, with no actual desire for debate. And falsely accusing people of talking about religion.

Again. The question of god, starts with the question of evil. Is good and evil real? Or hollow beliefs meaningless in the context of natural selection?

What do you say?

a reply to: cooperton

Jesus was the only prophet to conquer death. 

Sorry, but there is absolutly no evidence that this happend. All we have here is faith and belief.

He has a moral code of pacifism, peace, love, hope, altruism, and so on, and these very much resonate with the ideals I believe are true.

But his daddy did not. Some of the stuff in the bible is just plain brutal, so how do you explain that?

Islam also believes Jesus is Al-Masih, meaning the Messiah. I don't focus on the differences in approach, because the core love for the Most High God should be the focus. God knows his own, and they are incapable of losing Him no matter where they may be, or where they were raised.

But if you were born in the middle East, you would now be preaching how Islam is the one true religon. If you were born in Tibeat, chances are, you eould be a Buddhist. Every religous person claims their faith to be the true faith.

Have you read both?

Since the dawn of man, we have had Gods, and sadly, will always have Gods, and people will always want to believe.

No, but you do not have to to know the brutal stuff in both books. Why would you want to worship a God like that?

Jesus is the uninhibited embodiment of the Most High God - where did he exhibit any of those qualities?

Does not matter if Jesus was a real person or not, we have the holy books, and people's faith are cemented by those books, and those books have some of the most brutal and horrible things done in the name of God, or actually commanded by God.

Unless you think Jesus was real, and done all the things you claim, and the bible is not the word of God. Which one is it?

He was the embodiment of righteousness and truth. If you want to get into Old Testament Theology I'd be glad to. But I don't think you care, you have already made up your mind, you just want to try to prove your point and will avoid any new information that would present you with a change of mind.

Sorry, but the bible was clearly written by primitive human beings. Thst much is obvious, and the reason it's so brutal because people were brutal back then.

Sorry, but God sounds like a sociopath. Loves attention, craves power, is will to command the deaths of innocent men, women and children. Says he loves us, but will condemn us to hell, to burn for eternity. What type of being does all that?

On earth, prople who do that are tyrants.

originally posted by: Jay-morris

Sorry, but there is absolutly no evidence that this happend. All we have here is faith and belief.

haha.... well there's the entirety of the holy roman empire which was inspired by the moral code expressed by Jesus. We can track Peter's trail to spread the Good news through Rome and authenticate this trail through many cross-referenced writings at the time. Jesus's authenticity was further verified by the countless people who were willing to die for the Truth they saw. And again, our calendar is based around the time Jesus was born. So it doesn't even require faith. It is historical fact.

But his daddy did not. Some of the stuff in the bible is just plain brutal, so how do you explain that?

There is due justice for actions. You have to take accountability for free will. Despite this, Jesus and the Spirit he carried had no part of this, instead it was a mentality of turning the other cheek.

“Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them like Elijah did?” But he turned and rebuked them. "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man came not to destroy people's lives but to save them” Luke 9:54-55

But if you were born in the middle East, you would now be preaching how Islam is the one true religon. If you were born in Tibeat, chances are, you eould be a Buddhist. Every religous person claims their faith to be the true faith.

God knows His own and is incapable of losing one of His children, you're looking at geographical differences which are trivial to the Most High.

No, but you do not have to to know the brutal stuff in both books.

So you don't know the context of why these things occur... Malignancy needs to be removed before the cancer takes over the whole organism. You're playing the devil's advocate, but I'd advise being God's advocate.

Does not matter if Jesus was a real person or not, we have the holy books, and people's faith are cemented by those books, and those books have some of the most brutal and horrible things done in the name of God, or actually commanded by God.

Hitler and Mao have killed more people than any crusade. I also wouldn't agree that any violent action could be done in the name of Christ without exhibiting hypocrisy. Christ's doctrine was pacifism.

Sorry, but the bible was clearly written by primitive human beings. Thst much is obvious, and the reason it's so brutal because people were brutal back then.

That's the most adolescent review I have ever heard. The Bible is the most profound moral and archetypal code I have ever read. People have published endless amounts of books regarding their studies and the depths of this content. Check out Jordan Peterson, he's a good start for someone questioning what's going on

Keep looking for answers man... All roads lead to Rome so to speak.

Simple. Every religion says their God is THE God and they can't all be right so therefore they are all wrong. So in conclusion, god does not exist. Not in the form we are told.

Start with the behaviour of the electron in the double slit experiment.

a reply to: cooperton

haha.... well there's the entirety of the holy roman empire which was inspired by the moral code expressed by Jesus. We can track Peter's trail to spread the Good news through Rome and authenticate this trail through many cross-referenced writings at the time. Jesus's authenticity was further verified by the countless people who were willing to die for the Truth they saw. And again, our calendar is based around the time Jesus was born. So it doesn't even require faith. It is historical fact.

That's not true. There is evidence thst Jesus existed, but there is only a few historical facts regarding Jesus. There is certainly no evidence that he returned from the death. Absolutly none. And there is no evidence that he performed miracles. Again, just hearsay and stories, mainly from a book that is a bit of a joke.

There is due justice for actions. You have to take accountability for free will. Despite this, Jesus and the Spirit he carried had no part of this, instead it was a mentality of turning the other cheek.

“Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them like Elijah did?” But he turned and rebuked them. "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man came not to destroy people's lives but to save them” Luke 9:54-55

I can also quote passages from the bible where God commanded the deaths of innocent men, women and children. But, you having read the bible, you should know that.

Like a lot of people, they like to cherry pick the holy book.

God knows His own and is incapable of losing one of His children, you're looking at geographical differences which are trivial to the Most High.

And yet he has commanded the deaths of innocent children, but oh how he loves them!

So you don't know the context of why these things occur... Malignancy needs to be removed before the cancer takes over the whole organism. You're playing the devil's advocate, but I'd advise being God's advocate.

You are not really answering my questions. You are pretty much avoiding my points.

Hitler and Mao have killed more people than any crusade.

Mao and Hitler were not "loving Gods"

I also wouldn't agree that any violent action could be done in the name of Christ without exhibiting hypocrisy. Christ's doctrine was pacifism.

Again, you have ignored my questions over this. If what you are saying is true, then why do you even read the bible? You are cherry picking again!

That's the most adolescent review I have ever heard. The Bible is the most profound moral and archetypal code I have ever read.

Your hypocritcy is worrying, and this is the problem when it comes to religous people like you. You will ignore facts if it does not suit your beliefs and faith. You ignore the horrible and brutal stuff done in God's name, or commanded by God himself, and say "Jesus was peaceful and living"

So who's right? Jesus or the bible?

People have published endless amounts of books regarding their studies and the depths of this content.

And this proves what exactly?

Keep looking for answers man... All roads lead to Rome so to speak.

Look, I have no problem with religous people, as long as they do not hurt anyone. Everyone has a right to believe what they want at the end of the day.

Definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning. [17 words ]




Here is an experiment:


With your best honest intelligent productive ways and means of thinking and talking/writing, and in less than 50 words, tell me if you at all notice that even the best and most read writers, they don't take the care of defining the crucial words in their writings, WHY?


The aim of the experiment is to motivate everyone here to do honest intelligent productive thinking and talking/writing.


Then you and I can talk with us grounding ourselves on honest intelligent productive thinking, okay?

a reply to: Pachomius

To start, no one can prove the existence of God. No one can disprove the existence of God. The only "proof" one person can give to another is to share personal experiences.

I think it is a greater stretch of faith to look at the Universe and the complexity of biologic life, as an example, and say it all accidentally happened. Think of all the things that are just right for life to exist and flourish on the planet. What about when other planets with intelligent life are discovered?

One fact is life only stems from pre-existent life. Which does brings up the paradox of God, but I view God as the only uncaused cause. The first source and center of all things.

It is my opinion that most people seem to have an issue with God due to how God is taught/described in the various religions of the world. It taints their concept. Most people I have talked with and things I have read/seen people say basically describe a Zeus type of God. An old white hair/bearded guy in the clouds, they anthropomorphize God. God is not human, when it is said we are made in his image that was meant to mean our spirit, not our bodies. For God is spirit.
We are a spirit/soul with a body, not a body with a spirit/soul.

They also take the view that we are the only intelligent life in the cosmos. I think if you believe that other intelligent life exists in the universe that kinda automatically expands the persons concept of a Creator. I think another important aspect is the major religions basically teach God second handed. It is important for the individual to develop their own concept. It is fine to be guided by a religion, but the person must develop their own relationship with God.

Another thing I hear people use as an argument against the existence of God are the imperfections/unfairness in the world. Or that someone gets sick or was born with a problem and all the praying didn't help. Perfection is not our origin, its our destiny. If God wants to create perfect beings or worlds he can do so, but that is not what our order of existence was meant to be about. We are designed to learn from experience.

Consider the following:

1. Is courage—strength of character—desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

2. Is altruism—service of one’s fellows—desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3. Is hope—the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

4. Is faith—the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

6. Is idealism—the approaching concept of the divine—desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

7. Is loyalty—devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

8. Is unselfishness—the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

9. Is pleasure—the satisfaction of happiness—desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.