Weird Argument about removing statues

a reply to: JAGStorm


i cannnot speak for everyone - but i has the following RELEVANT books :

kershaw : hitler vol1 hubsis ,2 nemesis
heiden - the furher
strawson - hitle and churchill
fest - hitler
overy - the dictators - [ an analysis of hitler and stalin ]
hitlers war directives [ english translate ]
mien kamph [ english translate [ annotted ]]

all considered essential reading [ in context ]

its not hard - was it a rhetorical question ??

ETA - IMAGE - it didnt work 20 min ago - not my entire collection - but all real books at my fingertips :

a reply to: JAGStorm

The 300 Spartans who fought at Thermopylae are memorialized through film but they lost the war the same as the South did. Statues aren't about winning or losing but about honor, bravery and sacrifice - qualities many still think important regardless of the age.

a reply to: JAGStorm

So you are telling me a statue of Robert E. Lee in Alabama will erase history for someone in Utah, that will likely never travel there, or ever see it?

Yes, it's simply an object that reminds people of history. No different than a book with only pictures.

Utah may have an appreciation for confederate history. Mormons account for nearly 62 percent of Utah's 3.1 million residents. Mormons also believed in States' Rights, as did the Confederacy.

my relevant question to this ffarce - is what do statues CONTRIBUTE to historial knowledge ?

caveat - i am not advocating removal of statues - based on my opinions hearin . but ...........

what dooes a statue tell us ?

how they looked ? - but is the depiction accurate ? - some are others are " idealised "

in the case of US civil war generals - are there any who dont have an archive of photos and portraits ?

yes portraits can be idealised too - but photos less so

so seriously - for the efffort and expense - what do statues contribute [ strictly to historical knowledge ]

linking back to my last reply [ re hitler ] - by bookshelf [ just a hobbyists small collection ] - imparrts reams - litteraly of knowledge - for the < £100GBP i paid ,

i dont have a statue or bust of hitler - but if i wanted one - it would cost far more - and tell me what ?

thats my argument - statues are not a source of any great historivcal knowlege

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
my relevant question to this ffarce - is what do statues CONTRIBUTE to historial knowledge ?

caveat - i am not advocating removal of statues - based on my opinions hearin . but ...........

what dooes a statue tell us ?

how they looked ? - but is the depiction accurate ? - some are others are " idealised "

in the case of US civil war generals - are there any who dont have an archive of photos and portraits ?

yes portraits can be idealised too - but photos less so

so seriously - for the efffort and expense - what do statues contribute [ strictly to historical knowledge ]

linking back to my last reply [ re hitler ] - by bookshelf [ just a hobbyists small collection ] - imparrts reams - litteraly of knowledge - for the < £100GBP i paid ,

i dont have a statue or bust of hitler - but if i wanted one - it would cost far more - and tell me what ?

thats my argument - statues are not a source of any great historivcal knowlege

For archaeologist, statues are a very durable storage of history.
Also you can't photoshop a statue.

no statue, it didn't happen.

a reply to: rom12345

partially correct : a statue of julius ceaser - commissioned when he still lived - has an importance .

a statue of a US civil war general - commissioned in the 1950s ???

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: rom12345

partially correct : a statue of julius ceaser - commissioned when he still lived - has an importance .

a statue of a US civil war general - commissioned in the 1950s ???

Unless it is pulverized it could still be un earthed in a thousand years.

If I were in the business of desecrating statues. I would somehow graft tiny penises onto the statues, before burying them .

You know where else they tore down the statues? Venezuela ...

I've posted before about people who have had real world experience with communist and socialist regimes and takeovers who have fled here seeing red flags all over what's taking place now. Well, add this young lady's voice to the mix. She saw this is the lead up to Chavez's takeover in Venezuela. And we all know where that went ... at least they solved their obesity problem.

She points to several steps Venezuela went through on its way from being one of the most prosperous countries in the Americas to a socialist police state and economic disaster:

Statues came down because socialist dictator Hugo Chavez wanted the history erased.
He changed street names for the same reason.
He changed the educational curriculum to erase history and substitute his version.
Some movies were banned, presumably for the same reason.

We are seeing all of this taking place - the drive to rename places, tearing down statues for their connections to history we'd prefer to forget, and the drive to replace history with a preferred version (1619 Project).

Even worse, the young lady in the video say they were warned in Venezuela.

“You guys think it can’t happen to you, I’ve heard this so many times,” Rogliani says. “But always be on guard. Never believe something can’t happen to you. You need to guard your country and your society or it will be destroyed.”

She also notes that Cuban exiles tried to warn Venezuelans that they were seeing similar patterns and events they had suffered, but Venezuelans brushed them off saying they knew what freedom is and they would never surrender it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
You know where else they tore down the statues? Venezuela ...

I've posted before about people who have had real world experience with communist and socialist regimes and takeovers who have fled here seeing red flags all over what's taking place now. Well, add this young lady's voice to the mix. She saw this is the lead up to Chavez's takeover in Venezuela. And we all know where that went ... at least they solved their obesity problem.

She points to several steps Venezuela went through on its way from being one of the most prosperous countries in the Americas to a socialist police state and economic disaster:

Statues came down because socialist dictator Hugo Chavez wanted the history erased.
He changed street names for the same reason.
He changed the educational curriculum to erase history and substitute his version.
Some movies were banned, presumably for the same reason.

We are seeing all of this taking place - the drive to rename places, tearing down statues for their connections to history we'd prefer to forget, and the drive to replace history with a preferred version (1619 Project).

Even worse, the young lady in the video say they were warned in Venezuela.

“You guys think it can’t happen to you, I’ve heard this so many times,” Rogliani says. “But always be on guard. Never believe something can’t happen to you. You need to guard your country and your society or it will be destroyed.”

She also notes that Cuban exiles tried to warn Venezuelans that they were seeing similar patterns and events they had suffered, but Venezuelans brushed them off saying they knew what freedom is and they would never surrender it.

could be A Cultural Revolution 2.0

a reply to: rom12345

I really hope not. I'd rather not have to try to survive one. They tend to be uniquely brutal and end up costing millions of lives in the end.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: JAGStorm

The 300 Spartans who fought at Thermopylae are memorialized through film but they lost the war the same as the South did. Statues aren't about winning or losing but about honor, bravery and sacrifice - qualities many still think important regardless of the age.

Ok at the risk of being repetitive..not all statutes or monument are dedicated to a just cause, some are dedicated just because.

During the dedication speech, Carr praised Confederate soldiers not just for their wartime valor but also for their defense “of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years after the war” when “their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South.” The “four years after the war” was a clear reference to the period in which the Ku Klux Klan, a white paramilitary organization terrorized blacks and white Republicans who threatened the traditional white hierarchy in the state. Then he boasted that “one hundred yards from where we stand” — and within months of Lee’s 1865 surrender — “I horse whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds because she had maligned and insulted a Southern lady.”

Carr admittedly was uncommonly explicit about conflating Confederate memorialization with white supremacy, but Southern memorials inherently celebrated the slave South and white power along with the heroism of Confederate soldiers.
www.vox.com...

The above have nothing to do with bringing us together, again let's put them in their proper historical context.
These monuments were commissioned by men who thwarted the America that could have been.

a reply to: Spider879

So, you think they should be in museums? Why are they trying to knock down the one of Teddy Roosevelt at a natural history museum?

Oh, that's right ... he has a Native American and African American with him and *they* aren't on horseback too. Nevermind that it's completely appropriate to a.) have these statues at museums (that's what we're told) and b.) even more appropriate to put Teddy Roosevelt at a natural history museum.

Stop making excuses.

At this point, they just want to erase the culture because it's not one they prefer. This is a revolution. Own it.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I read this while my employer was talking to me about something very stressful he is navigating at work.

And it made me smirk. I hope he didn't think my smirk was directed at him.

a reply to: chelsdh

Let me know if you get fired, I may apply for your job.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I have a pretty sweet job. Get to browse the internetz and read and watch pretty much whatever I want. It is a haven away from home!

a reply to: chelsdh

Well, you earned it so enjoy.

a reply to: ketsuko

Why are they trying to knock down the one of Teddy Roosevelt at a natural history museum?

Stop making excuses.

At this point, they just want to erase the culture because it's not one they prefer. This is a revolution. Own it.

You can't lump everyone in together by the actions of a few.

It is OK to believe Statues belong in museums, and also OK to believe those statues should be preserved and not damaged.
It seems too many feel you must take one extreme or the other and there is no middle ground. There is middle ground.

I’m not a fan of destroying them. I AM a fan of preserving them in museums. I’m an avid fan of history and am so thankful my father told me when I was around 12, when I was bitching about doing a history report and asked him why we even had to learn about the past, he told me “To see how they navigated the path back then.”. I didn’t understand it immediately and it wasn’t until I discovered my fascination with WWII in my later teen years that I started to understand it.

In the spirit of democracy, this is something I’m more than happy to let the majority make a decision on. I’m hoping that the majority also find it important to preserve these statues. At this point, they WILL be much safer in a museum than they will in a town square or park. They will be maintained much better than letting the elements get to them and they’ll be under guard of the museum.

In the end, if the majority of another race we share this country with sees these statues as something terrible, then that tells the libertarian in me that it’s something that’s stopping them from enjoying this country as freely as I’m able to do. I would be quite upset if the resolution was complete destruction of said statues, I DO see that as a way of re-writing/ignoring the past, but I’m all for removing them from public spaces and putting them in their own safe spaces.

a reply to: Drucifer

In the end, if the majority of another race we share this country with sees these statues as something terrible, then that tells the libertarian in me that it’s something that’s stopping them from enjoying this country as freely as I’m able to do.

Well Said, well said!