Rioting and looting in Stuttgart, Germany

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
I strongly disagree.

Checking out a 17 year old who is allegedly under the influence of drugs (alcohol is 18+ except beer, that's 16+) is not "launching an anti-drug actions"

Let's keep the facts straight.

I think we need a leader who would come out and state firmly very firmly , peaceful protesting is ok plus you have a ballot box but start to riot and destroy and the gloves come off and we get nasty , It disgusts me the damage that is being caused world wide in these cities and they are getting away with it and even encouraged by the ones who should be clamping down on it

If any idiot tried that in my area it would not be the police they would need to worry about and i am no cop lover but mess with the peace and quiet and stoner would be a totally different creature

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
I strongly disagree.

Checking out a 17 year old who is allegedly under the influence of drugs (alcohol is 18+ except beer, that's 16+) is not "launching an anti-drug actions"

Let's keep the facts straight.

Okay. This, for me, is the key fact. The police, and by extension, the rest of the city authorities, completely underestimated the street psychology in Stuttgart. That much is clear by the reaction of senior policeman Lutz -- "I never experienced such a thing in my 46 year career".

I call that being caught with their pants down. Less strident would be "failure of intelligence" regarding the situation.

Deutsche Welle said the estimate is that over 500 people took part in the violence. That isn't just a couple of rowdy people high on drugs or having consumed too much alcohol. There was a mentality there that authority needed a bloody nose -- and the Stuttgart authorities were unaware that the attitude was "out there".

To policeman Lutz, I would point out that the Germany of today is not the (West) Germany of 46 years ago. Time to wake up for the authorities, and they need to watch what is going on in other cities. My prediction is that this will not be an isolated event.

But if I am wrong about that, feel free to upbraid me.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The police, and by extension, the rest of the city authorities, completely underestimated the street psychology in Stuttgart. That much is clear by the reaction of senior policeman Lutz -- "I never experienced such a thing in my 46 year career".

You are kind of proofing my argument with that.

I call that being caught with their pants down. Less strident would be "failure of intelligence" regarding the situation.

No one could have seen this coming. You completely disturb facts here. This DUI happened at a lake. Some of his friends disagreed, made a fuss out of it and started to notify their friends. This is how it unfolded, not some demonstration, not some preplanned DUI, it happened fluidly. That you now try to blame the police for not seeing this coming is dishonest at least.

Deutsche Welle said the estimate is that over 500 people took part in the violence. That isn't just a couple of rowdy people high on drugs or having consumed too much alcohol. There was a mentality there that authority needed a bloody nose -- and the Stuttgart authorities were unaware that the attitude was "out there".

Now you try to disturb facts again. It started with a DUI on foot and then turned into what happened according to the media. Do you even read my posts or do you make things straight up out of thin air? I wrote hundreds of people, 500 is hundreds of people. There are lower numbers out there, do you want to nitpick?

My prediction is that this will not be an isolated event.

That's not hard to predict either.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

No desire to distort facts on my part ... BUT ... no desire to spare Stuttgart authorities for what I consider to be an obvious failure on their part.

No sweat. We obviously have a different view of the situation.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

You know the history of Stuttgart protests and how the S21 demonstrations went out of control some 8 years ago? I mean for some of the protesters there, it was a pretty bad day. Loosing eye-sight and such. The followup court rulings and media giving police hell. Take these things into consideration, too.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Yes, I recall that, although I didn't hear about the court rulings.

Well, they should have been given a hard time about that. The use of water cannon was overboard and nobody should have lost their eyesight ... especially when the city authority was (IMO wrongly) bending over backwards to please a corrupt local elite who wanted to force through a huge construction project that was largely unwanted by the public.

But that does make me wonder about last night. -That- would have been a good use for water cannon ... again IMO.

If Stuttgart is unfortunate, the event last night will set a pattern for future clashes. That used to happen in Frankfurt/Main frequently.

Cheers

a reply to: Irishhaf

A mob is an unthinking monster that doesn't care what it destroys, damages, or even kills.

We've seen historic examples of what mob rule brings. Prime example being the Terror in France. That was the epitome of Mob Rule.

How anyone, anywhere, can attempt to justify anything of this sort is quite beyond my understanding.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
I agree with the watercanon being overreacting.

that was largely unwanted by the public.

Not entirely the case here. The project was known for a long time, pre 2000 and nobody cared then. That it spiraled out of control money wise and go from 4,5 to 8,something Billion Euro and other mishaps, is a different thing though.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Much of that is some of those people, and I use that term loosely, see the riots on TV, then learn that nothing happens to those rioters, and viola, they look for an excuse to do the same.

Then, they're given an excuse...not a reason, an excuse, to do so. Hey, presto...riots in Stuttgart, or Chicago, or Seattle, or in many another place.

No repercussions worthy of note, in places the authorities are even told to back off, instead of cracking heads.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
I agree with the watercanon being overreacting.

that was largely unwanted by the public.

Not entirely the case here. The project was known for a long time, pre 2000 and nobody cared then. That it spiraled out of control money wise and go from 4,5 to 8,something Billion Euro and other mishaps, is a different thing though.

There were plenty of people, -before- the cost overruns, who liked the train station as it was, who loved the old trees in the park, and who understood the entire reconfiguration of the train tracks was a "benefit" of dubious value. There was much popular opposition before the project started. But the firms involved saw the opportunity to make a huge amount of money ... and with that in play, so much for what the people wanted. As undecided as the people were, the city should have put the project on extended review and under more study.

Again, my view only, but it was a case of out of control development in which money talked.

Cheers

a reply to: SaneThinking
the kid was German...

a reply to: seagull

I expect in Stuttgart there will be a period in which more police presence is obvious.

But that isn't a fix if people with ideological motivations are able to channel the street attitude. If that happens, the trouble makers will just lay low until the police presence lessens. Or it may hit other cities.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Agreed. All while looking for another "reason" to go stupidly violent.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

I really do not want to brush away your post like that, but it does not matter. I liked the old building and the trees in the park too.

But a decision was made, people could veto it but they did not care. It was neither secret nor was it hidden or a non-public decision, at all. People missed the opportunity to act when they could have but did not.

Overthrowing 20 years of planning after contracts were made is not going to happen, and did not. Rightfully.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

We're really off topic now. I will only say that the people were surprised by the scope of the project. It was the culmination of years of big projects around Stuttgart that were huge money makers for the few and perceived by many to be a blight.

Honestly, votes or not, the people there don't have a lot to say about what the big firms do. Money talks in Stuttgart, and, I suspect, all over Germany. Nothing surprising about that to me, but there was IMO very little transparency about why certain decisions were made ... and almost no accountability (to the public, at least).

Okay. I won't talk about S21 in this thread anymore.

Cheers

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

This has zero to do with police brutality or protesting it, it is rather an excuse used by these mostly juveniles and early adults, to be dickheads.

So Europe is now experiencing the same crap as the US, with pretty much the same player mindsets...

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Honestly, votes or not, the people there don't have a lot to say about what the big firms do.

Sidetracking and moving goal posts now. A vote is a vote, decisions were accepted by the public, everything was in the light but the BILD reading Wutbürger "Rage Citizens" suddenly all jump the train and go all outrage about something that was in dry papers for about 10 years and planned for about 20 years.

This is not how democracy works. Last post about S21.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: Irishhaf
Where was that, roughly?

The freedom of speech and gun culture is difficult to understand for some, was for me too until I read into the history of your country, then it makes sense that it is how it is.

Only real negative thing I ever heard was that Americans are loud. Only real life interaction I had was an American in a shop asking for a way description. He was friendly and open and a bit surprised I answered in English, although it must have sounded funny.

I think a lot of people here never met an American and are just going by the standard prejudices. However, I also saw some videos about Americans giving their opinions about Germans that does not make Americans look good in terms of what they know about other countries.

Your comment caught my eye. “Loud” American. Our country is large and segmented. Many people from the northeast are considered loud—-due to the loud environment they live in; to be heard, they elevate their voices. It becomes habitual. I live in a small town in the south. Generally, we speak slowly and never loudly (unless angry, of course). Perhaps Germany has similarities. BTW, my wife and I have really enjoyed the first 3 series of Babylon Berlin.

Hey that's not my opinion, just saying, it is just a prejudice I am aware of. However I think it is a culture thing, Americans seem to be very open to strangers on the street.

Germans can be as loud as anyone else.