Police officers across the nation. What the hell is wrong with some of you ?

a reply to: Boadicea

In different circumstances I might be backing what went down .

But not now. Extra caution and situational awareness must be exercised with buildings burning post to coast .

a reply to: Fallingdown

This man was so intoxicated he passed out in a Wendy’s drive through.

The man didn’t just resist arrest he took the cops taser and pointed it at him. What if the cop actually got tasered? Tasers can be deadly. Do you think he just tasers the cop once and flees? Or do you think after he tasers the cop he says oh # I’m going to jail for a long time let me kill the witness?

This man pointed a potentially deadly weapon at a cop. And it’s impossible to know his intentions should he actually landed a taser shot on the cop.

I would say almost anyone carrying a gun who has a taser pointed at them is going to shoot the one who is pointing the taser at them. This is survival.

I would love to see everyone who thinks this is excessive force spend 6 months on the police force in a bad neighborhood. Somewhere shootings are a regular occurrence. Then let me know if you think this cop was doing anything other than protecting himself from a criminal who deserved to be arrested.

a reply to: Boadicea

Which is why society is at an impasse. I say it's NOT a nonstarter, that police are just as responsible for everything they did or did not do leading up to the confrontation, as they are for anything they do or do not do during and after the confrontation.

Which in this case was attempt to effect an entirely lawful arrest. My point is that taking the position that they could have chosen to not enforce the law and therefore everything after that is their fault is a non starter. There was nothing in their behavior to be faulted. Other than your opinion that they could have and should have chosen to not make a lawful arrest.

Fair enough... and I will simply point the many many instances of excess force that do not result in death, that may or may not result in serious and/or long-term injury, or just a little roughing up. But are no less unwarranted and unacceptable.

BJS studies have shown that out of the tens of millions of interactions a year, less than 1.5 million of those have any level of force involved, and that includes simply handcuffing people. Remove handcuffs from it and that number drops to less than half a million. That’s any force at all. The numbers are simply not there to support the assertion that there is some widespread abuse happening. You know you’ll get no argument from that even one instance of abuse is one too many, though.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Good post and I’m in agreement .

No one could take all the variables in this situation . But because of the political climate and the results of another police officer killing a black guy. You must err on the side of caution.

Police officers don’t show up for work thinking who do I get to kill today . I haven’t heard the officer give any kind of statement. But I can’t help but believe after this encounter everything I’ve said ran through his head .

a reply to: Isurrender73

This man was so intoxicated he passed out in a Wendy’s drive through.

Post after post after post in this thread. Ignores my point and takes the exact same stance as people do in every thread on a police shooting .

If I wanted to defend the circumstances behind the shooting. I could’ve said don’t chase him , when he pulled the weapon he was out of range, he had another officer on the scene is back up .... yada yada yada .

But I’m not I’m talking about this single incident causing the country to burn .

Humor me did you see my point in the OP ?

But it looks like you’re gonna be a remake of the other guy and parrot the same talking points as we have on all shootings and not acknowledge what’s going on in the country now .

If so and you ignore my point have a nice day .

Edit;

Why aren’t you bringing up the incident in Minnesota ? I mention that in my OP too.

I’m talking about police officers across the board and I guarantee you that with what’s going on in the country. Many of them have exercised discretion on how arrests are made . You seem to think every police officer shows up for work and ignores the riots, arson and physical assaults .

Did you notice my title. It said police officers not the police officer in Atlanta .

a reply to: Shamrock6

Which in this case was attempt to effect an entirely lawful arrest.

Perhaps that is the root of the problem.

My point is that taking the position that they could have chosen to not enforce the law and therefore everything after that is their fault is a non starter. There was nothing in their behavior to be faulted. Other than your opinion that they could have and should have chosen to not make a lawful arrest.

I realize that these officers apparently did everything by the book up to the point lethal force was used. And as you may already expect, I have not watched. So I do admit my ignorance on some specifics, such as how far the deceased was from the officers when he allegedly pointed the taser back at the officers, and if the taser was within range.

Perhaps I should be putting more focus and blame on laws, policies and city officials who have contributed to putting police and citizens in their respective positions, and I admit that I have not looked into Atlanta's history and politics. I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around -- there always is!!!

However -- and this is a big however -- the arrogance and veiled threats of various police entities in response to the public's demands for reform are disturbing. Especially when the people are protesting abuse of force and power, threatening retaliation and retribution to the people does not inspire sympathy nor understanding, much less trust. The people hire them to do a job, and it is up to the people (directly and/or indirectly) to dictate the specifics of the job. If the police can not/do not want to accept those conditions, or they can find another job. The "we'll police you the way we want to police you dammit!" attitude is not acceptable.

On the plus side, in the process of reform (if/when we get there), I hope/think we can do a helluvalot better for our police. I think they need better pay, better defensive and protective equipment, better training, better support services (mental health call training and Crisis Intervention Teams), better benefits (including mental health services, and death benefits for families of the fallen), and most of all better job specifications.

a reply to: Boadicea

I know you’re not a fan of watching the videos, and I’m certainly not trying to cajole you into it. I hope that given our interactions you trust my opinion enough to know that I’ll call it as I see it, for better or worse. These two cops didn’t so much as raise their voices until the fight had started. One officer asked him to put his hands behind his back and went to cuff him. He didn’t, and he was asked a second time. With the same tone and volume as the first time. He was less than two parking spaces away from the first officer when he turned and pointed the taser at him. Even then that officer still had his taser out, though he was beginning to transition to his firearm at about the same moment.

There are certainly unjust laws out there, and those laws get enforced. But that’s a subject for another thread. Sure, they could have let him secure the vehicle and taken him home. Called him a cab. Whatever. But none of that changes that it was entirely lawful, and they were as far from overbearing or responsible for escalation as possible.

a reply to: Fallingdown

I think you are making a generalization about cops that is unfair to the vast majority.

According to all the statistics that I have looked at I would say very few cops are “bad cops”. It appears like the overwhelming majority risk their lives in bad neighborhoods each day without using force in an unwarranted way.

Bad cops do bad things. If anyone is to blame other than the person themselves it’s the police unions that have made it extremely difficult to fire bad cops.

The cop in the Floyd case had a history of excessive force and should have lost his job before it ever got to this point.

The answer lies on both sides.

Cops -they need to restrain themselves from using force up until the point they are forced or fearful. And only use deadly force when they feel a risk to their safety or others safety. We also need a better way of sorting through the apples so we can quickly fire the bad ones.

Suspects - Don’t commit crimes, don’t resist arrest, don’t have a bad attitude towards the officers.

If a suspect refuses to put their hands behind their back to be arrested they have left the officers no other choice but to use force. Human nature says that at least some of these incidents are bound to end in excess force.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Boadicea

I know you’re not a fan of watching the videos, and I’m certainly not trying to cajole you into it. I hope that given our interactions you trust my opinion enough to know that I’ll call it as I see it, for better or worse.

Yes, of course I trust you and I believe you.

He was less than two parking spaces away from the first officer when he turned and pointed the taser at him.

Thank you for explaining that part. And are you sure that he was deliberately aiming it at the officers? It wasn't, perhaps, just turned with him turning around and unknowingly pointed at police? Not doubting you, just making sure on that point...

There are certainly unjust laws out there, and those laws get enforced. But that’s a subject for another thread.

I'm thinking that side definitely needs its own thread. But I don't want to author it!

Sure, they could have let him secure the vehicle and taken him home. Called him a cab. Whatever. But none of that changes that it was entirely lawful, and they were as far from overbearing or responsible for escalation as possible.

Okay. Fair enough and true enough, and we certainly don't want police picking and choosing which laws they enforce, or who. So food for thought in the big picture. Laws matter... words matter. Thank you -- I will think about this.

No promises that you'll like what I come up with any better, but you can still argue with me in your own awesome way... it's my pleasure in fact. If I need to be skooled, I want to be skooled by the best.

a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you for explaining that part. And are you sure that he was deliberately aiming it at the officers? It wasn't, perhaps, just turned with him turning around and unknowingly pointed at police? Not doubting you, just making sure on that point...

It absolutely does. The light was activated on the taser, and lot was fairly well lit. He very clearly goes from a normal running movement to turning and raising the taser towards the officer directly behind him.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Okay. Got it.

Thank you.

a reply to: Isurrender73

I think you are making a generalization about cops that is unfair to the vast majority.

I think you’re still missing my point.

As for a generalization show me where I said all cops are going to be in this situation while the riots are going on .

I didn’t read your whole reply I just scanned it.

It only took a glimpse to see that you’re rattling the same cans that you did before .

I simplified this earlier so I will do it again .

What was your first thought when you heard about this shooting ?

That’s my point .

a reply to: Fallingdown

I think you have no point. Chucky said it best with blacks only matter in election year. Research it, it's there. 2021,2022,2023,they won't matter. Just wait unil a black female get's shot, I'm calling it now. One playbook, racism and sexism.

Do you know how many people die each year through wrongly prescribed medication or just being on medication? You know how many people die each year through botched operations? Do we call out and protest them?

This police brutality is one big fat nothing burger.

All we need now is Augustus then we have a full house of retards...oh I mean cards.

a reply to: one4all

Wow strong words. You do understand the guy broke a law before cops spoke with him? You do realise that running is breaking another law? I won't mention the other laws broken.

Think about this, if a guy broke into your home took your gun and pointed it in your direction and your daughter or wife or whatever shot him? Self defense yes?

SMDH

a reply to: Staffordshire1

I think you have no point.

That must mean your point is. In the current climate with billions of dollars in property damage, arson, people being dragged out of their cars and beaten plus 400 officers injured and least four killed.

Every officer should just conduct theirselves as normal. No thought whatsoever should be given to the repercussions that piece of lead will cause.


If you call that A sensible observation . You aren’t concerned with this thread and its true meaning .

You just showed up for an argument that’s been ongoing for over 4 decades .

I assume you think the officer shouldn’t have given second thought to any of that ?


Weather the the shooting was justifiable or not. Does and has not mattered to my point which I’ve stated numerous times on this thread only to be ignored .

I once read that six Americans each year die from choking on their toothbrush .

That statistic is not germaine and neither is any of the whataboutism you brought up .

a reply to: Fallingdown

FYI, the coworker who said there was a history between the officer and Floyd has retracted his claim. He lied.

There was no issue between the two of them before Floyd's death.

originally posted by: Staffordshire1
a reply to: one4all

Wow strong words. You do understand the guy broke a law before cops spoke with him? You do realise that running is breaking another law? I won't mention the other laws broken.

Think about this, if a guy broke into your home took your gun and pointed it in your direction and your daughter or wife or whatever shot him? Self defense yes?

SMDH

break the law, go to jail, run away, go to jail, run with a taser and not actually shoot anyone with it, arrested and go to jail,


perp is trying to kill you, defend yourself, simple as that. otherwise wtf are you doing.

I don't think in any of the training pamphlets pull out gun and shoot perp whilst he's running away is in there.

don't use the training bs.... I've seen white cops de-escalate the most extreme situations dealing with white criminals armed and rushing the police.... and lo and behold, mental health issues drug abuse and guy goes home at the end of the day.

floyd was hand cuffed and inside the police car when the cop pulled him out and killed him.....at that point how was flloyd supposed to avoid being killed???

originally posted by: GentrySociety
Question for anyone who is trained in restraining someone. How, can you restrain someones head to prevent them biting you unless you use the knee technique. I am guessing just asking nicely isn't going to work. My opinion will take heat as well, if you don't want a knee on the back of your neck, first don't be put on the ground, don't want to be put on the ground cooperate with the officer and do not resist arrest. These videos only show the aftermath of confrontations where the arresting officer has finally subdued the criminal. It is amazing that the Floyd video stopped filming between when he falls to ground and then to knee on back of neck. There be some video missing where the meth head giant of a man resisted arrest that i personally want to see. Scale from 1 to 10 how hard is it to restrain a meth head who is going bezerk resisting arrest. I watched the show cops seems like damn near impossible if you ask me. Anyway if anyone has the missing footage its probably next to the moon landing missing footage. a reply to: Fallingdown

someone posted that a knee on the neck is used by cops well here is a message by officer DAVE BISSONNETTE he has trained thousands of officers over many years

Officer Dave Bisonnette posted this on facebook...
I’ve had numerous people approach me and ask me my opinion regarding the police use of force in Minneapolis. I normally don’t speak out like this in such a public forum but my heart is broken with what I am witnessing across the country and right here in our own state and I feel the need to say something.

I have been a police officer for 19 years. For 16 of those years, I have taught Use of Force and Police Arrest & Control techniques at the recruit level at the Municipal Police Academy and at numerous departments throughout southern New England on an in-service level. I have trained thousands of cops. My training not only includes physical tactics and techniques to control a violent and combative individual but also the physiological, psychological and legal aspects that officers face during this type of event. I am a certified Force Analyst through the Force Science Institute and also teach a course in police diffusion and de-escalation techniques. I have conducted numerous Police Use of Force reviews throughout the state and am considered a subject matter expert by the RI Attorney General in the area of Police use of Force. I’m not saying all this to impress anyone. I really don't care what anyone thinks about me. I’m saying it because I want to establish credibility with anyone that reads this post. I know what the f**k I’m talking about.

I have watched and reviewed the George Floyd video countless times. In all my years doing this, I have never seen a more blatant disregard for human life than what I witnessed in that video. It haunts me. It made me sick to my stomach. I can’t stop thinking about it. I’ve seen plenty of suffering and death in 19 years but have never watched a man die while the people who are supposed to protect them watched it happen and did nothing.

Kneeling on someone’s neck is not a technique that is taught or accepted anywhere that I’m aware of. As a matter of fact, we specifically tell recruits and cops NOT to kneel anywhere near the spine or neck because you can paralyze or kill someone. There are countless other ways to control someone on the ground that don’t involve putting your knee into a person’s neck with all your weight for over 8 minutes.

That is my professional opinion. Now for my personal feelings on the matter:
To “Officer” Derek Chauvin, who is the officer seen kneeling on Mr. Floyd’s neck, I have this to say to you: You Bastard. You Son of a Bitch. You and two other officers knelt on George Floyd’s neck and back and you watched him die. George Floyd was handcuffed and proned out on his stomach. Please don’t say you were holding him down because he couldn’t have pushed himself up off the ground if he wanted to. He was controlled. Once someone is controlled the use of force ends. Period. It is then the officer’s duty to check the well being of the subject to be sure he is not hurt or in distress. I don’t care how hard he fought you. I don’t care if he was on drugs. You had a duty to act! The smug look on your face said it all. You didn’t care that Mr. Floyd was begging for air and calling out for his Mother. You have no honor. And the other three officers are just as culpable. They didn’t act to stop you. You are all cowards. I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire.

Now the country is burning down. And you were the spark. Your fellow officers are getting injured and killed. Even officers in your own city. Your brothers. I hope you can live with that for the rest of your life. I hope you can live with the suffering and pain you started. You have put us all in a position where we now have to defend ourselves against angry mobs with bricks and bats and other weapons who group us in with you. Well I am not like you. We are not like you. You are the 1%. I will NEVER be like you. I would rather die than be like you.

To my family and friends and those I care about who are not police officers and maybe don’t understand, please know that no one hates a dirty, piece of # cop more than a good cop who does this job with honor and pride. I beg you, do not judge the 99% of good police officers based on the actions of an ignorant and evil few.

If you want to protest what happened, please do. Reach out to me. I will march with you peacefully just like thousands of other cops across the nation and mourn what has happened. I will kneel and pray with you. And when I put my uniform on, I will protect your right to peacefully protest because I took an oath to do so.

To my brothers and sisters that put on this uniform every day. Do not let what you see on TV jade you into thinking that this is what it is all about. The majority of people out there are good, honest hard working people who support you and what you stand for. Remember that. We don’t want to be judged by the actions of a shameful few and neither do the people we serve. Support the people we are sworn to protect. Hold your heads high and serve with honor and integrity.

To the rioters, I speak for all of law enforcement when I ask: PLEASE STOP. Your actions are solving nothing. You are not mourners or protesters. You are thugs and opportunists. You are cowards. You are destroying people’s lives and your behavior will not be tolerated. People are going to get hurt. Please do not test our resolve when it comes to protecting our flock. Enough is enough. This is not the legacy that George Floyd deserves.

Thank you for listening.

OK I figured out a way to make my position clearer .

The shooting was completely justifiable .

Now with the current climate in the country was it necessary .