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Manx. The language.

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posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 08:18 PM
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Hello ATS!

I have always had a deep fascination with languages, and while watching some video commentary about the Isle of Man races there was an older man speaking. I couldn't quite place it. It was Gaelic in nature, but didn't really sound like anything I had heard before. I could have ignorantly dismissed it as a speech impediment or drunkenness, but I did the intelligent thing and did some looking.

I knew there was Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, Cornish, Welsh, and Breton and while I don't exactly have a good grasp on any of those languages I can usually discern where a person is from or what language it is.

But this one was new to me. Apparently, on the Isle of Man, they have their own language which has been classified as critical. Within the next decade or so there could be no more spoken Manx.

This has me intrigued as a guy who loves language. Would any of the ATSers here speak Manx? If so, I would greatly appreciate it if you could direct me towards some resources to learn it.

Duolingo doesn't have it. Rosetta Stone doesn't have it, and I've even gone so far as to sign up for Interpals—which I haven't seen anyone listing it as a language they know.

It's been quite some time since I've learned a language. So, I'd really like to take this challenge on, and maybe have a chance to keep it alive for a bit longer to pass on to others as well.




posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 08:56 PM
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a reply to: AutomateThis1

I live in west Lancashire in north west England and on a clear day when I was a kid I could climb a local hill and see both Anglesey off north wales as well as the welsh mountain's and also much feinter the Isle of man as well.

The isle of man was for a very long time a Viking colony and belonged to Denmark until they gifted the Isle to Scotland, despite being closer to England and Ireland it is actually technically both independent AND subject to Scotland not England.

So it is actually surprising that both they and the Hebrides speak a Gael tongue rather than a Nordic derived Germanic tongue and in fact this goes to show that while conquered and settled by the Viking's the native Gael's must also be among there ancestors with a strong enough line back for there language to have both survived and it's descendant actually become there native tongue even after the Viking period was over though many Viking traditions survive along with a Viking identity in both the outer Hebrides and the Manx people.

Still according to this interesting piece there are at least seventeen native languages in the UK many being critically endangered and if we include the channel islands' that rises to as many as more than twenty.
www.opendemocracy.net...

Arguably English itself is more than just Old Norse and Norman French jumbled together, indeed it also has many Gaelic and Latin word's within it that are commonly used today such as Street which is derived from Latin.

In fact if you had not asked that question I would not have known we had so many languages in our nation, intriguing and interesting thread.



posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Star my friend. I was aware that the Vikings had intermingled with the natives of the Isles. I mean the Vikings definitely got around. In the eleventh century they even ventured into the Mediterranean raiding and settling in "boot" of Italy, Sicily, and parts of Africa.

And that's just based on what historians have managed to dig up. I definitely think it's possible they even made it to parts of the Americas at some point.

That being said it's interesting listening to Celtic languages as a native English speaker. It sounds so familiar. The mind wants to believe it's almost understandable, and it's also understandable why some people think that it sounds like a drunken person rambling. Because it just.. almost.. sounds.. like it could be coherent English.

That's part of the reason I love language. It's fascinating. The mind hears it, and automatically tries to comprehend it, and the more languages you learn the more the mind seeks to comprehend the unknown. The mind starts running it through filter after filter. Dialect? Accent? Tone? Similar word sounds? Is that a subject? Is that a verb? That sounds like this.

There are even universals. Um, is damn near the same in every language. Listen to a pause from a foreign speaker and you're likely to hear an "Um," or a "Hm," or even an "Ah,"

In Spanish speaking American countries you're likely to hear a person make a sound like "Eh." It's the same thing.

Language is truly fascinating.
edit on 1362020 by AutomateThis1 because: (no reason given)


Edit:

Speaking of which I did connect with a Russian woman on Interpals who has been working on a book about the history of the language and in it she brought up what you were talking about. I uninstalled the app, but hopefully it's still there in the messages. Give me a moment, and I will download it again, and hopefully find it.
edit on 1362020 by AutomateThis1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 09:36 PM
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Found it!

The French language arriving to the English territory

In X century the Vikings occupied the Gallo-Roman population in Normandy, a Northern region in France.
The descendants of the Vikings had nearly forgotten their native language, having started to speak a local language by William the Conqueror's invasion. This language was one of the langues d'oïl idiom and called the Old French language or the Northern French dialect. Being ancestor of the Franko-Norman language, Old French was developing under Latin influence and embraced elements of the Celtic and Scandinavian languages. Its speakers created their writing system and Old French became a language of literature, court, and commerce of the Duchy of Normandy in the XI century. In Old French the Scandinavians (the Northmen) were called as the Normans (inhabitants of Normandy). Normandy's name comes from the settlement of the territory by mainly Danish and Norwegian Vikings
William the Conquerer and the Nobles who came from Normandy spoke the Norman-French language.

The French Middle Age Specialist and Linguist Andre Crepin considers that the term "Anglo-Norman" is not quite correct, because William didn't speak the English or pure Franco-Norman language.

William's court spoke several languages. The nobles spoke Franco-Norman and Central French (Literary, Parisian French) The mass of ordinary people used Franco-Norman, Picardian, Walloon, and Flemish idioms. Consequently, the Franco-Norman language comprised Old French filled with vocabulary from the Old Scandinavian languages brought by the Vikings into Normandy.



posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 09:39 PM
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The French Middle Age Specialist and Linguist Andre Crepin considers that the term "Anglo-Norman" is not quite correct, because William didn't speak the English or pure Franco-Norman language.

William's court spoke several languages. The nobles spoke Franco-Norman and Central French (Literary, Parisian French) The mass of ordinary people used Franco-Norman, Picardian, Walloon, and Flemish idioms. Consequently, the Franco-Norman language comprised Old French filled with vocabulary from the Old Scandinavian languages brought by the Vikings into Normandy.

The Franco-Norman language differed fundamentally from the Central French language ("francien")used in Paris and spoken in Île-de-France and its surrounding areas. This influence was caused due to an enormous Germanic impact on the Franco-Norman dialect. Aristocrats, officials, translators, lawyers, and scientists spoke literary French.
The omnipresence of the Franco-Norman language has become one of the most important consequences of William the Conquerer's invasion.

In the X-XI centuries, Franco-Norman developed into the Anglo-Norman. The latter took the role of the language for the English nobility, business, and commerce.
For a while Anglo-Norman and a local Anglo-Saxon language develop separately, then, intermarriages become more frequent and the languages start to interact.
Linguists class this period as a period of emerging of Middle English (1100). The Middle English period in the history of the English language lasted till the beginning of the XVI century.

Around 65,000 people followed William from France to England.
Lands of the English nobility were scattered to the Normans, the Lorrainers, the Flemish, the Bretons, and some other Englishmen supporting their new governor. Almost all English nobility died at the Battle of Hastings. Throughout twenty years of ruling, William has become one of the most powerful and richest western kings. The Anglo-Saxone elite was completely defeated by the Norman one. Starting from 1066 and during three centuries in a row, English kings chose spouses of French origin. From Henry II of England (Plantagenet) till Henry IV of England (Lancaster), wives dowered enormous territories and the French language of their courts. Thirteen English queens born in France made a great contribution making French an official language of elite and administration.
William dismissed English prelacy and abbots to the advantage of the Norman archbishops. An archbishop who didn't speak French could have a reputation for "know-nothing and incompetent ".

Starting from the XIII century, the prestige of the Anglo-Norman dialect is diminishing in England and being interpreted as obsolete and clumsy. From XIII century till XV century the main dialect is Literary or Parisian French. Parisian dialect strengthened its influence after the events of 1204. John Lackland (Plantagenet) (1167 – 1216) surrendered Normandy, Maine, Anjou to the French King, Philip II Augustus (Capet). Around 1250, two centuries later the Norman invasion, knowledge of French has become obligatory for not only the nobles, but also for representatives of the middle class in England. Its knowledge guaranteed successful work and trade. Since 1258 till 1362 the French language saw its rise. After the invasion of William the Conquerer, Middle English got around 1,000 Norman words. In the XIII-XIV centuries around 10,000 French words became progressively used by the Englishmen.

By the middle of the XIII century, the French language had dominated the field of justice and administration in England.From the 12 century until the 15 century, the courts used three languages: Latin for writing, French as the main oral language during trials, and English in less formal exchanges between the judge, the lawyer, the complainant or the witnesses. The judge gave his sentence orally in Norman, which was then written in Latin. Only in the lowest level of the courts were held trials entirely in English. Almost all lawyers and judges were arriving from France. Numerous privileged families sent their children for study in French cities or French-speaking schools in England. Knowledge of the French language became essential for communication in palaces of archbishops.

In many cities, important trade centers people with Norman names (for example. William, Robert, Henry, Alice, Matilda) were the most prominent townsmen and probably constitute the majority of the trade class.
Although being very prestigious, the French language failed to substitute completely the Anglo-Saxon dialects , which were native for 95% of the local population. English remained the vernacular of the common people and peasants throughout this period. The Latin language remained the language of the Church and consequently of education and historiography, and was used for the purpose of records. Latin also remained in use in medieval England by the royal government and some local administration. Herewith the Anglo-Saxon language fell into disuse as a written language. Nearly 85% of the Anglo-Saxon vocabulary was forgotten.

Events of the Hundred Years' War (1337-1453), conflict of interest for the territories of the New World's burst the feeling of national identity among the English. The English bourgeoisie rebelled against the dominance of the French language and demanded to draw legal acts in English. The Soviet Linguist and Philologist V. D. Arakin considers that the French language started to lose its power and respect among the Nobles around 1258. In that year King Henry III made a speech to his subjects in both languages . Throughout several years local population of England began to perceive the French language as something hostile. Many Englishmen were making attempts to speak their native language but still didn't know enough to be able to express themselves. The French vocabulary left its traces and was much closer and comprehensible for the English. Later the French language was still predominantly used in the field where it didn't give up its position: commerce, justice, literature.

In the XIV century, one third of the population died from the outbreak of the bubonic plague. Hundreds of monks, main teachers of French, were touched by this disease. Moreover, the shortage of rural population dramatically changed the situation on the labour market letting peasants claim better life conditions from the French-speaking lords. This fact also brought the French language into discredit.
By the end of the XIV century, the English language had come back to schools, courts, and the Parliament. More precisely, in 1362 the Parliament made a decision to hear all cases in English from that day and onward. Besides, having ascended the throne in 1399 King Henry IV of England Bolingbroke (1366-1413) was the first English ruler since the Norman Conquest whose mother tongue was English rather than French.

In the XV century, the English language had a determined orthographic norm. By the end of the XVI century, Modern English had become the language spoken by William Shakespeare. There haven't been any crucial amendments to the phonetics and grammar of the English language. Nevertheless, the vocabulary passed through certain change.



posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 09:39 PM
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Today the Anglo-Norman language is spoken in Bailiwick of Guernsey (Guernsey Norman French), representing the last remnants of the medieval Duchy of Normandy. Also, it is possible to hear Jersey Norman French in Bailiwick of Jersey, another British Crown dependency.



posted on Jun, 13 2020 @ 09:45 PM
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So yeah, I find language fascinating.

It evolves and adapts right alongside us. It's how we convey emotion, thoughts, ideas, whatever comes to mind. It's the medium in which we cause or stop change. It's literally how we communicate, and connect with each other.

We have the words to communicate, and even though this isn't the forum for it, we need to use our words more than ever in today's sociopolitical climate.

We can avoid physical violence if we can just communicate with one another and use sound logic and reasoning.

But yeah, anyone know where I could get in touch with someone who knows the Manx language? Even books would work to get started on.

It's not really feasible to pack my things up and take a trip there at the moment. Lol



posted on Jun, 14 2020 @ 01:25 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767



...Still according to this interesting piece there are at least seventeen native languages in the UK many being critically endangered and if we include the channel islands' that rises to as many as more than twenty.


We're working on that down here in the Channel Islands (Jersey), my daughter can speak some but I'm ashamed to say that I'm useless (I even struggled with French in school).

'Government to spend £1.5m on the teaching of Jèrriais'


...The funding proposals were contained within the Government Plan, which was approved by States Members last month.

Additional financial support for the teaching of Jèrriais was unanimously approved by the States in 2016 and four ‘experienced’ teachers have been appointed since then.

The report accompanying the latest spending plans says that lessons are now being taught in 13 primary schools to just under 150 pupils and in six secondary schools to 14 pupils. Adult classes are also being taught, which five States Members are attending.

‘As a result of these measures, it is hoped that a new generation of native Jèrriais speakers will emerge,’ the report says.

‘The Jèrriais Teaching Service, along with other key stakeholders, have now developed the Jèrriais Language Plan 2020 – 2023, to coincide with the Government Plan, which outlines aims and objectives to protect and promote Jèrriais, centred around five strategic themes.


You can still hear it being spoken by some of the older folk in rural parishes, especially in pubs, although these days it seems like it's just more of a party trick, so to speak.

'Ahh bah cragh, ma love!' (That's not Jèrriais, but locals get it, lol)




posted on Jun, 14 2020 @ 05:19 AM
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There is quite a lot of online resources in learning the Manx leanguage:


BEST WEBSITE TO GET STARTED:
learnmanx.com

ONLINE COURSE
Glossika: Learn Manx

PODCAST
Adrian Cain's Manx Language Podcast
Learnmanx

APP
Learn Manx: by culture vannin
Culturevannin website

OTHER COURSES:
Eurotalk: Learn Manx

ONLINE MANX - ENGLISH DICTIONARY
Mannin
taggloo
Gaelg

FREE EBOOKS
A Dictionary Of the Manx Language

Manks: A Practical Grammar

Poems From Manxland: With Legends and Translations from Manx and German

YOUTUBE
Manx Language

About the Manx Language
Short Documentary



posted on Jun, 14 2020 @ 04:23 PM
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a reply to: Debunkology

Awesome. Thanks!

These are great resources!
edit on 1462020 by AutomateThis1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2020 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: AutomateThis1

Holy crap nice thread! I learned a lot from this very interesting history regarding a language I was unaware of.

That is a ton of detailed info thanks AutomateThis1, really interesting. S&F



posted on Jun, 15 2020 @ 12:33 AM
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a reply to: ColoradoJens

Don't thank me lol. Thank the random Russian chick I met on a penpal app.



posted on Jun, 16 2020 @ 11:12 AM
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originally posted by: AutomateThis1
a reply to: Debunkology

Awesome. Thanks!

These are great resources!


No problem. There are obviously more resources to learn Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, i.e Duolingo has them both, and so it would be easier to learn them. I think learning them languages would help since they are so similar to Manx. Mastering one of those languages would help you able to understand either of the other two.

edit on 16 6 2020 by Debunkology because: (no reason given)




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