Today's America: Fear Society or Free Society?

Since Bush took office, we have these things called "free Speech zones." Never in my life have I heard of such politically restrictive BS here in the U.S. It goes against everything I was raised to believe in. The right to gather and speak freely and to criticize our government's policies has been a hallmark of our nation's heritage. It has always set us apart from nations who fall into the category of fear society, as described by author Natan Sharansky.

In it he quotes Sec. of State Condoleeza Rice outlining the test of what makes a nation a free society or fear society:

"If a person can walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment or physical harm, then that person is living in a free society, not a fear society."

That's interesting, considering people have been arrested and beat up for speaking out against Bush. People in malls have been kicked out or arrested for wearing anti-Bush shirts; protestors in NY (during the GOP convention) were rounded up like cattle and locked into a bus warehouse for hours and hours w/out recourse; the stories have been myriad.

We're not all the way there yet; but, I contend we are very, very close to living in a FEAR society. Remember.. Asscroft's snitch Army? They're still out there. Probly sitting next to you at Starbucks.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Since Bush took office, we have these things called "free Speech zones." Never in my life have I heard of such politically restrictive BS here in the U.S.

One has allways had to apply for permits for protests. The 'free speech zones' aren't swaths of the coutnry that allow free speech, they are specific areas that exist for the duration of specific events, like the RNC or DNC.

"If a person can walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment or physical harm, then that person is living in a free society, not a fear society."

The the US is certainly a free and open society. If it was post revolution and you went into the town square and started singing 'god save the king', you'd get the snot knocked out of you. Hell, loyalists were sought out, dragged out of their homes by mobs, and literally tarred and feathered. Today, if you illegally protest you get fined.

protestors in NY (during the GOP convention) were rounded up like cattle and locked into a bus warehouse for hours and hours w/out recourse

They were arrested for illegally entering Central Park. They were specifically informed that the protests were not allowed in the park, and the organizers said 'well we're going to go there anyway'. Not only that, but everyone arrested was let go free of charge and without trial, and are free to sue the city and police organization.

. Remember.. Asscroft's snitch Army? They're still out there. Probly sitting next to you at Starbucks.

It would be damned foolish to not have a centralized hotline where people can report acts specifically related to domestic terrorism. It would also be foolish to not encourage transportation workers, whose industry is a likely target, to keep their eyes peeled.

All of this is an argument for vigourous prosectution of the war on terror abroad, to finish it as soon as possible, so as to lift the restrictions and actions from the general public.

Originally posted by Nygdan
One has allways had to apply for permits for protests. The 'free speech zones' aren't swaths of the coutnry that allow free speech, they are specific areas that exist for the duration of specific events, like the RNC or DNC.

Freespeech zones are a new Bushian creation. No other president has ever corralled protestors into out-of-sight areas. It just proves how far they will go to suppress dissent. It's unAmerican. And it shows how weak their positions are. Even Reagan and Nixon faced their ideological foes and diologued with them. 'Course they were real men with real ideas.

The the US is certainly a free and open society.

Yeah, if you're a Bush supporter.

Today, if you illegally protest you get fined.

You must not have been paying attention to accounts from the New York GOP convention. The cops corralling protestors and innocents who were in the wrong place at the wrong time give a much different picture of what took place. There are many other examples of needless police brutality & stupidity in general.

They were arrested for illegally entering Central Park.

It was not illegal to 'enter Central park.' They were arrested all over the place.

Not only that, but everyone arrested was let go free of charge and without trial, and are free to sue the city and police organization.

Exactly. The judges basically ruled that the cops behavior was ridiculous and without merit. Oh yeah, and you know the decrepit bus terminal used to house all those protestors & innocents? It was paid for by the GOP.

It would be damned foolish to not have a centralized hotline where people can report acts specifically related to domestic terrorism. It would also be foolish to not encourage transportation workers, whose industry is a likely target, to keep their eyes peeled.

We already have that. It's called 9-1-1 and the FBI. This goes way beyond that. This snitchBiz is reminiscent of Nazi German tactics.



[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Here's an interesting little article I came across. There may or may not be government agents calling businesses and warning them not to post any anti-Bush signs on their property. Anyone heard anything like that where you are?

I know what its like when Bush is around and in town. My little city becomes a virtual ghost town upon his arrival. You can't even stand on the sidewalk as his armed armada flies by. Forget about holding any kind of anti-Bush sign. The secret service would jack datAss.

BARNSTORMING EXCLUSIVE!
Did a federal agent ban anti-Bush signs in downtown storefronts?
CHRIS DAVIS | 3/12/2005

Print this Article
SIGNING ON

“The man who called was very polite and nice,” says John Gasquet, owner of Empire coffee at 2 N. Main in Downtown Memphis. “He said he was special agent Something-or-other. He said that due to the fact that in some states the President had been to, there were issues of security regarding area businesses, he was calling businesses to tell them not to put up any negative signs in their windows that were negative toward President Bush. He said there were designated areas of protest and this would cut down on the possibility of problems.”
www.memphisflyer.com...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
It just proves how far they will go to suppress dissent.

They're certainly not out of place, the protests are all over the media. The zones are set up so as to have the protests not interfere with the meetings and the area they are in.

You must not have been paying attention to accounts from the New York GOP convention

Indded I was.

. The cops corralling protestors and innocents who were in the wrong place at the wrong time

They were not innocent. They were illegally in the park, they had broken the terms of their permit, just as they had promised to do.

There are many other examples of needless police brutality & stupidity in general.

I don't expect the police to be perfect. If some protestors got their skulls cracked, what of it? They were prepared for something like Montreal and Seattle. It just so happened that at this protest the organizers weren't interested in getting as violent as normal.

It was not illegal to 'enter Central park.' They were arrested all over the place.

Not in the permited protest areas. ANd it certainly was illegal to enter central park. That venue was specifically off limits.

Exactly. The judges basically ruled that the cops behavior was ridiculous and without merit.

As I recall, the city simply choose not to prosecute. THe interest was crowd control, not trails.

Oh yeah, and you know the decrepit bus terminal used to house

Oh boo hoo, they put them into bus depots. Oh my god, the floor had grease on it. Who cares.

We already have that. It's called 9-1-1 and the FBI. This goes way beyond that.

Its a centralized hotline for terror related activities. It isn't way beyond anything.

This snitchBiz is reminiscent of Nazi German tactics.

And soviet tactics. All the more reason to prosecute the war on terror internationally rather than try to defend against terrorists internally, which is immpossible.


[edit on 15-3-2005 by Nygdan]

There you have it. Condi as much as admited we live in a fear society.

As I have said elsewhere, I think many Americans are in denial over what their country is becoming under this administration.

(and just in case someone wants to quibble over the UK in this I'll agree that whilst we are some way behind we have our loonies trying to deceive the people with this 'we can make you completely secure, all it takes is for you to agree to let us strip away most of your rights and liberties' too.)

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
As I have said elsewhere, I think many Americans are in denial over what their country is becoming under this administration.

Not everyone sminkeypinkey; but many are. They'd do well to unplug themselves from the fantasy world of Fox "news." These people, and you can glean it from their posts, are angry, racist to the core and scared of some phantom cave-dwelling boogie man. They love hearing talking heads bash people. It makes them feel good. Imagine that.

Any person who is smart enouph to search for the truth rather than have it fed to them will agree that the liberal left wing is the most non realistic bunch out there. Funny thing is the most pissed off enraged people ive ever met have been left wing liberals who blindly hate the right wing conservatives and refuse to agree with them no matter how right they are on a subject. Hate bush, hate the right thats the liberal way. Your a fool.


[edit on 16-3-2005 by Theblind]

The people who disagree with others are not 'racist to the core', nor are they are all pissed off 'liberals'.

The US was attacked on September 11th. This is not a myth. This is not a peice of propaganda, and I am not trying to pander to some reactionary jingoist fervor by noting that. Yet, there it is. An enemy declared war on the US and attacked it. Bush, some have said, goes to far in his reponse. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it hardly requires one to be a viscious pig headed racist to to recognize this. And if the whole thing was a false flag mission, if 'bush did it', well, he did a good job of it, it was a naer perfect trick. A person can be perfectly rational and reasonable and still 'fall for it'.

I wasn't alive during the Vietnam War era, but from the footage I've seen, I think we have come a long way. I think we blow some things out of proportion just for some kind of political argument.

Since the Regan era, you Americans have had a blanket pulled over your head, you live in what appears to be a free society, yet nothing you do or say has any merit to the government... Its all just covered over with media bombardment and propaganda. All your rights and bills and constitution has items in it that are contradictory to other items in those bills etc...

Another problem with your country that gets exploited by the government is the fact that you have so many states with so many different laws... Its used to keep people confused and keep them from concentrating on the big bad world out there...


RANDOM TRIVIA #1:
Did you know in some states in the US its legal for a 12 year old kid to walk into a gun store and buy an M16-Assualt Rifle...

Is it just me or is that dumb!!!

[edit on 17-3-2005 by ghostsoldier]

As for Nygdan's post. For what ever reasons bush used to go into iraq, weather they be true or false the fact remains. Going into Iraq has many benefits that most people fail to see. One ousting a dictator who was oppressive to his people in many ways. Any of you who disagree with me are fools go do the reasearch hussein was a maniac. Another good reason is this. If you were to fight terrorist you would have to go hunt them down using tactics that the CIA and SIS use. Or you could go into the heart of one of the most radical regions in the world and set up shop. Next thing you know instead of you going after the terrorist they come to you. They attack your armed marines rather than your civilians, they come out into the open where they can be killed, and its done in the middle of a desert. That is a very smart way to fight terrorism. Have the news broadcast failures and set backs make them think there winning so they fight harder. Truth is where just mowing them down over there. I know a few guys who do work for the government one is a gun for hier. Ive asked them what they think, in there minds there not this way or that. For them its just a job. Final good reason is that over time without war you have an army with officers who have never seen combat nor do we have the tactics for this new type of warfare. Iraq is bringing us all these things.

As for ghostsoldier's post. Its so easy for people to find problems with americas government or way of life. Truth is we have far less problems then most countries and every country has there share of problems, none are perfect but in my opnion america is the greatest nation on earth.

Originally posted by Theblind
Hate bush, hate the right thats the liberal way. Your a fool.

Then it must kill you to know that I'm a life-long, card-carrying Republican.

That doesn't mean I have to check my brain at the door.

Originally posted by Nygdan


The US was attacked on September 11th. This is not a myth. This is not a peice of propaganda, and I am not trying to pander to some reactionary jingoist fervor by noting that

Do yourself a big favor, read Operation Northwoods. If that doesn't pry open your mind to what's really going on, nothing will. Here's a link:

In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp.

www.gwu.edu...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Do yourself a big favor, read Operation Northwoods.

I am already familiar with operation northwoods.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Do yourself a big favor, read Operation Northwoods.

I am already familiar with operation northwoods.

If you are familiar with Operation Northwoods, why are you not pondering the idea that this attack could have been orchestrated (by the US or another country (possible Israel)) ... You never get told the truth with regards to these kind of incedents...

Read up about what the PPOG is designed for, and you'll soon see that it is a much more beleivable then you may find comforatable...

The link below is a list of Israeli backed terrorism... I could find a list of the US backed terrorism that would probably be 2 or 3 times longer...
www.whatreallyhappened.com...

Chronology of American State Terrorism

Iraq
2003-Present

Palestine
1948-Present

Iraq
1991-2003

Afghanistan
2001-Present

Colombia
1960s-Present

Yugoslavia
1992-Present

Congo/Zaire
1961-Present

Cuba
1959-Present

Guatemala
1953-Present

El Salvador
1980-Present

East Timor
1975-1999

Haiti
1987-1994

Somalia
1993

Afghanistan
1979-1992

Nicaragua
1981-1990

Panama
1989

Libya
1981-1989

Iran
1988

Grenada
1979-1984

Greece
1964-1974

Chile
1964-1973

Costa Rica
Mid-1950s, 1970-71

Dominican Republic
1963-1966

Vietnam
1945-1974

Cambodia
1955-1973

Laos
1957-1973

Thailand
1965-1973

Italy
1947-1970s

Indonesia
1965

Brazil
1961-1964

British Guiana/Guyana
1953-1964

Iraq
1963

Soviet Union
1940s-1960s

Western Europe
1950s-1960s

Haiti
1959

Indonesia
1957-1958

Middle East
1956-1958

Iran
1953

Germany, Italy, Europe
1950s

Eastern Europe
1948-1956

Albania
1949-1953

Korea
1945-1953

Philippines
1945-1953

Greece
1947-1949

Marshall Islands
1946-1958

Italy
1947-1948

France
1947

China
1945-1951

Hiroshima & Nagasaki
August 1945

Dresden, Germany
February 1945

Japan, Germany, France
1942-1945

Around the world
1800s-1930s

Philippines
1899-1902

America and Africa
1607-1890

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
If you are familiar with Operation Northwoods, why are you not pondering the idea that this attack could have been orchestrated (by the US or another country (possible Israel)..

For God's sake, Ghostsoldier! That would make too much sense!

Nice chronology, btw.

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
If you are familiar with Operation Northwoods, why are you not pondering the idea that this attack could have been orchestrated (by the US or another country (possible Israel))

Did I say I can't consider it? I have considered it and rejected it based on the evidence.