Breaking news: End-times church gets shot up

Don't know where something like this would go but:

Right now on fox news with Geraldo Rivera. Turn it on!

Sorry for the brief intial post, I wanted to get this post up right away. Apparently a guy walked into some chuch in Oklahoma that has about 6000 members and shot 21 rounds into the people killing 6 and wounding 4 more including the Pastor and his son. The late Pastor was preaching biblical prophecy coming true more frequently and telling people to stock pile food and supplies. The killer is strange because he left no note, came in do his evil and then killed himself apprently with no motive. The point is: Is there a larger conspiracy going on right now? Is preaching "end-times" prophecy becoming something of a taboo/cult thing that is going to be persecuted more and more often until it is completely denied to exist? Sort of the fullfilment of prophecy where true Christians will be attacked and overcome. I am alluding to the coming 7 years of Tribulation that is
happening in many peoples eyes.

~Rebel Saint~

[edit on 13-3-2005 by RebelSaint]

A large prophetic end times prophecy church had one of it's members go out in a blaze of glory...

Went after the Preacher and several random members.

I agree with the Fox News analysts End Times prophetic teaching is boderline heretical, and most definitely a dangerous attractant to the psychologically impaired.

This should put a dent in that Lahaye "Left Behind" Rapture cult.

Now to rush over to forums.tribulationforces.com... and see how they handle this one.

EDIT: Wow, you didn't go with what I was expecting at all Rebel Saint. Persecution of crazy people? Uh, yeah. Where do I sign up?

[edit on 13-3-2005 by RANT]

EDIT: Wow, you didn't go with what I was expecting at all Rebel Saint. Persecution of crazy people? Uh, yeah. Where do I sign up?

LOL. That's not what I meant by in my post. I wanted to present the facts of the story and how its "weirdness" and strange events may be interpreted by those same believers as a strengthening factor in their faith in their ideas and beliefs. However I will say this. While I don't necessarily believe everything I see and hear, end-times prophecy is certainly a topic that has alot of weird and strange coicidences and sometimes plain old evidence that something more is at work. Therefore those who believe will be seeing the whole of it while those who don't will dismiss it as nonsense.

~Rebel Saint~

It was unclear what specifically upset him, but Ratzmann was a member of the Living Church of God (search), a denomination whose leader recently prophesied that end times are near.

Fifty to 60 people were at Saturday's weekly meeting, and anyone in Ratzmann's path appeared to be a target. He even dropped a magazine and reloaded another.

The church's minister, Randy L. Gregory, 51, and his son, James Gregory, 16, of Gurnee, Ill., died, along with Harold Diekmeier, 74, of Delafield; Richard Reeves, 58, of Cudahy; Bart Oliver, 15, of Waukesha; Gloria Critari, 55, of Cudahy; and Gerald A. Miller, 44, of Erin, according to police and published reports.

Marjean Gregory, 52, of Gurnee, was hospitalized in critical condition. Matthew P. Kaulbach, 21, of Pewaukee and Angel M. Varichak, 19, of Helenville were hospitalized in satisfactory condition Sunday, a hospital spokeswoman said. A 10-year-old girl police identified as Lindsay also remained hospitalized.

The church group was 20 or 30 minutes into Saturday's service when the shots rang out.

Ratzmann regularly attended the gatherings at the Sheraton each Saturday — the church group did not have a building of its own. But Frazier said Ratzmann walked out of a recent sermon "sort of in a huff."

"Something that the minister said he was upset about. I'm not quite sure what exactly," she said.

During the shooting rampage, Ratzmann told the friend who approached him that he was upset, said Waukesha County District Attorney Paul Bucher, although he was unsure over what.

He was not known to have threatened anyone and had no criminal record, police said.

Fox News

I do think these offshoots of mainstream Christianity harbor, attract and promote Theo-Terrorism and it's the responsibility of mainstream Christianity to deal with them... swiftly.


[edit on 13-3-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by RebelSaint
The point is: Is there a larger conspiracy going on right now? Is preaching "end-times" prophecy becoming something of a taboo/cult thing that is going to be persecuted more and more often until it is completely denied to exist?

God I hope so.
If there's one thing the world needs less of is lunatics actually hoping for the end of the world. Do these really sound like people you can build a constructive society with? Or would even want to? I've got three words for "end times" nuts self fulfilling prophesy. A prophesy doesnt really count if you bring it about yourself.

They said on KFYI that the shooter was "miffed" at something that was said at a previous sermon.

Crazy

I live about five blocks from the hotel where it happened and wow did Fox get a lot wrong.

First of all they called in a "cult deprogramer" as a specialist. Cult deprogramers are usually ex-cons who make their money kidnapping and "un-brainwashing" cultists for concerned familes. This practice is now illegal in the United States and has been shown in several studies to cause post-traumatic stress disorder in the person who was deprogramed.

The shooting happened in a Milwaukee suburb and it should be noted that the University Of Wisconsin-Milwaukee actually has one of the foremost scholars in New Religious Movements (NRMs) in its philosophy department, Dr. James Lewis. Instead of going to him, Fox chose to feature an inflamitory, anti-NRM deprogramer. Disgusting.

The Church in question is not, I do repeat, IS NOT, a violent organization. They are apocalyptic but, if looking purely at categorical designation, so are most Evangellical Christian groups. Personally, I'm not afraid at all from this group, I don't agree with them on most every issue but I feel no fear about having them in my immediate comunity.

As a philosophy of religion student, I've seen a great many of these so-called "endtimes" groups and a majority of them do not fit the 7 criteron for a bad or dangerous religion.

The individual church member who did the shooting was crazed and a dangerous person, but the religon at large should not be blamed for the deviant actions of one member. Insted we should be sharing in the collective gref as it truly could have happened anywhere.

~Astral

The pastor was right I think. There does appear to be a new world order on the way!!!!! STOCK UP NOW!!!!

unnn, right. You okay UFO?

An end-times prophecy is that two witnesses of God (prophets) will start preaching that the end is near, and perform miracles, predict events--and still people will not believe them. The are supposed to be killed, murdered in the streets, as a result of their actions, and this is to gain world-wide attention. And still people will not believe. Who's going to be the nutcase then? Such is the stigma attached to anyone that sees the big picture beyond the perception of everyday life.

Okay buddy, first off I've not heard of any miracles from this group, and the verdict is still out on the motive for the shooting so I think you're making a big leap of faith on this one. Also, beyond the interviews for a couple days on 24/7 American news networks I don't think this story has gotten much national attention. I've also yet to see a single major international news agency pick it up at all.

It was a mass-murder, tragic and horrible yes, but not a sign of any end times.

~Astral

If a christian church/denomination preaches the end times exclusively or mainly that is where the problem lies. End time events are to be preached and learned about so we can get a grasp on what is going to happen. So that when we see awful things going on in the world we won't be taken completely by surprise. The initial shock is gone because God has already warned us ahead of time. And we can know somewhat what point in time we are in.

End time events, if made to be the focus of a church would be depressing. Without the procaliming of the hope that God has provided in Christ(the main message of the Bible) life would appear pointless and in vain.

There is a continuance of life after the end times, one filled with the reality of all evil being destroyed and mankind finally at peace. And each individual will then be able to fully be and experience all that God has planned for eternity.

Is this post about the Ratzmann shooting or isn't it? The original post says Oklahoma, but the hotel shooting occurred in Wisconsin didn't it? Was that just a mistake, or has there been another mass church shooting? The living church of God right? There was another thread on this on ATS, I posted their website, and their principal beliefs, they didn't seem like outwardly crazy folks...

Anyway, deprogramming shouldn't be outlawed, it's a necessary thing in today's world. We should be de proramming partisan weenies and filling the streets with inteligent, propaganda-questioning citizens. Or do you prefer living in a country more closely resembling N. Korea?

The cult of personality is sickening in this country. It needs to be brought to its knees and dispatched with a mercy bullet.

dbrandt, you answer your own post acutally. Most of the Christian sects dealing with the end of the world focus greatly upon the idea of what will be after the end of the world. In that way, it's acutally a pretty hope-filled religion, abet a nasty way to get to it.

The church in question was no exception to this, they preached about the kingdom of god after the end of time. They also focus on Christ, but mostly upon making one "born again" as a method of salvation, which is something that I have a problem with.

No one ever said they were preaching purely about the end times.

~Astral

WyredOne, So who's morality and reality should be the basis for the deprograming? Also, doesn't it violate the freedom of religion and freedom of speach in America? While I don't like all the Bush-ite followers running around the country they did make the choice themselves, and while I believe that we should make every effort we can to educate our citizens, you can't force it upon them. As much as it may be a downside of democracy, people are free to seek knowledge at their own pace and their own way.

~Astral

End Time zealots have always been surrounded by the shroud of weird things,,,,like the cool aid suicides and arcinic suicides in the 60's and 70's....nothing new there . I would however caution people read the beginning of the book of revelation where it says many shall say they are prophets and are not and they will lead to the destruction of the less faithful with lies....

I also would caution that it is told out right that blessed is he who keeps the words in the book and I think that will be a tool of the ones who wish to destroy the faithful....there are referances also that God and Jesus shall be veils under which the evil shall hide ....ie the church being used to spread false messages.

I am not damning the church rather showing why the church is not where to place your faith and love.....or men either.......put all in God and recieve back that which you placed in him , cut the church out because even the church has been told it is flawed by God in the 7 letters to the seven churches.....God points out the veil of the church shall be a means for false prophets....false text....false judgements....discord etc.


Let God say that which needs to be said and give Only to God that which is to be given...

Originally posted by nightbreid
An end-times prophecy is that two witnesses of God (prophets) will start preaching that the end is near, and perform miracles, predict events--and still people will not believe them. The are supposed to be killed, murdered in the streets, as a result of their actions, and this is to gain world-wide attention. And still people will not believe. Who's going to be the nutcase then? Such is the stigma attached to anyone that sees the big picture beyond the perception of everyday life.

That was my favorite scene in Tim LaHaye's science fiction novel "Left Behind" too.

I wish people realized "based on scripture" is like saying the "DaVinci Code" is based on the Bible, or Whitley Strieber's "Communion" is based on "actual events."

Being an End Times Rapture cultist is to Christianity what being a Trekki is to science.

I couldn't agree with you more!

Originally posted by RANT
Being an End Times Rapture cultist is to Christianity what being a Trekki is to science.

Howerver, as someone who has fought against them (as a political activist) for years, I can say that the vast majority of them are only dangerous when armed with a voting ballot, and that is their right same as ours.

One must, regardless of weather or not one agrees with them, look at the teachings of the Living Church Of God before passing judgment upon them, and regarding that, I'm in total agreement with WyrdOne, they don't seem too crazy.

~Astral

Good point, RANT !

I would say that, if the fellow who did the shooting was a member of the church, it hardly points to a 'larger' conspiracy against 'end times' groups.

And they are hardly a new phenomenon.....I was hearing pretty much the same thing years ago.....and have seen several 'last days' come and go.

Originally posted by The Astral City
No one ever said they were preaching purely about the end times.

[/quote



I have not checked into this church/denomination. My post was for reference to churches who focus mainly or exclusively on end times preaching and for info for others. I'll have to check into this church when I have time.

[edit on 16-3-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 16-3-2005 by dbrandt]